Raw Drives Me Insane - 1/26/09
Date: 01/26/09 from Cleveland, OH.
The Big News: TNA Impact ain’t got nothing on this shit.
Show Analysis:
Randy Orton came out with Legacy, lawyers and a therapist. Yes, you read that right. He first wanted to discuss what happened last week on Raw. Apparently what happens with the McMahons is more important than the title and the WrestleMania main event. Orton says that he has IED, and read a statement explaining what that is. It was totally goofy to the point it was like comedy.
Orton blamed what happened to Vince on IED and said he isn’t responsible. He said his therapist appraised WWE of this condition and WWE did nothing. Orton said that if he’s fired he will sue Stephanie and WWE. He then threatened a second lawsuit, where he will sue for breach of contract if he isn’t put in the Mania main event. He then read a statement apologizing to Vince.
This segment was such an utter disaster on every level. Orton was working phenomenally as a heel because he was this evil, manipulative viper character. It fit him perfectly and was clicking like no other character he’s ever portrayed. So what do they do? They turn him into a chickenshit heel that hides behind lawsuit threats. Besides being a complete 180 to anyone who has watched the show for the last six months, it’s all wrong for Orton. This is what they were doing with Jericho. Orton is not Jericho. He has different skills as a performer. And Jericho as champion drew poor business, so it’s not like this is a glory period we’re trying to recreate.
The only possible explanation I can come up with for this nonsense (other than incompetence or a desire to hold Orton down) is that they’re worried Orton is becoming too much of a face. What is so wrong with some fans cheering him? That’s just the nature of wrestling in 2009, and Orton is able to combat it better than most. And their solution is a failure on every level. It makes him significantly less effective as a heel right now, it will make him even less effective as a face if and when he turns, and it’s so inconsistent with the way he has behaved for months that it’s like he’s not even the same character.
Miz and John Morrison beat Cryme Tyme. The heels worked over JTG, who got the tag to Shad. Shad came in with clotheslines and punches. He gave Morrison a power slam and STO, but Miz broke up the pin. Shad gave Miz a big boot, but Morrison used the opportunity to hit the moonlight drive for the pin.
They announced an elimination chamber match for the Raw title at No Way Out. The idea of elimination chambers at No Way Out is a great one, but it should be for the unclaimed title shots at WrestleMania, not the actual titles. It makes no sense that the challenger is in a better position going into the most important show of the year than the champion, and that’s precisely the situation here.
I’ve never really liked the idea of ostensibly stripping the champion of his title and putting him in a six way match without a very specific and well explained reason, but it is particularly absurd in the final buildup to the biggest show of the year. It makes the title feel like a prop as opposed to a symbol of the best wrestler. Particularly when the participants end up qualifying in a series of nothing three minute TV matches against midcarders.
Moreover, a big match benefits from longer build, and trying to create five title challengers at the same time necessarily creates a gigantic distraction from what you ultimately plan to be your money match just a month later. Having an elimination chamber to fill the vacant title shot augments the benefits of the Rumble; having one for the title undermines the benefits of the Rumble.
Kofi Kingston beat Kane to earn a spot in the elimination chamber. Kane went for a choke slam but Kofi worked his way out and rolled up Kane for the quick pin. Again, this doesn’t do wonders for the significance of the title a month before WrestleMania.
Chris Jericho came out and they aired a clip from The Wrestler. Idiocy then commenced, as Jericho complained about what Mickey Rourke said on the red carpet. They aired a clip of an entertainment reporter asking Rourke about doing something with WWE. Rourke then alluded to coming for Jericho at WrestleMania and cut a comedic promo. I can’t believe they aired this.
The Rourke clip was not him providing any motivation to explain him coming for Jericho. He was just acknowledging he would be doing a wrestling angle. Rourke, the interviewer and anyone watching with a brain knew that he was talking about this program as fake, and I can’t recall a successful wrestling angle that ever started with one of the participants acknowledging that they were about to embark on a fake wrestling angle.
Chris Jericho then said that it’s one thing to pretend to be a wrestler in a movie and it’s another to be a wrestler, which I took to mean Jericho is annoyed that Rourke is coming in to do a program with him. Maybe Jericho can promise to shoot on Rourke and the announcers can talk about how unprofessional Jericho is for not working with Rourke like Vince Russo did in the dying days of WCW at New Blood Rising.
I mean, seriously, this is how they are starting what could be a big program with Mickey Rourke? By airing footage of Mickey Rourke acknowledging that he’s doing a wrestling angle? There are a million fascinating ways to use Rourke, and this is the best they could do?
Backstage, Shawn Michaels and JBL spoke. JBL didn’t like being given the superkick at the Rumble. Michaels said he had to lower John Cena’s guard, and that he did everything he could to help JBL win. JBL said that was a false assumption, but that there was still business to be done. JBL told Michaels to be the showstopper one more time, and earn him a spot in the Elimination Chamber.
John Cena beat Shawn Michaels, so JBL didn’t qualify for the chamber. Michaels and Cena traded punches. Cena went for a bulldog but Michaels avoided it and slapped Cena. Cena slapped him back. Cena went for the FU and STFU but Michaels escaped. Cena hit shoulder blocks and the Cena slam. He went for the five knuckle shuffle, but Michaels grabbed him in the crossface. Cena powered up and tried the FU but Michaels grabbed the ropes.
Cena then applied the STFU, but Michaels got to the ropes. Michaels hit a slam and went for the elbow off the top, at which point JBL inexplicably distracted Michaels by repeatedly telling at him to superkick Cena. When Michaels continued for the elbow, JBL got on the apron to distract him some more. Cena then shoved JBL into Michaels, who fell off the ropes. Cena hit the FU for the pin.
Beth Phoenix and Jillian Hall beat Melina and Kelly Kelly. Santino did commentary. The heels worked over Kelly. Kelly was going for the tag when Rosa came out of nowhere to pull Melina off the apron. Kelly couldn’t make the tag and was given the glam slam for the pin. I liked the clever and unexpected finish here.
Rey Mysterio beat William Regal to qualify for the chamber in a brief match that was good while it lasted. Regal brawled for most of the match with punches and kicks. Rey came back with a 619 and springboard splash for the pin. Backstage, Rosa told Santino she needed to do something for Beth after what happened at the Rumble. Beth teased anger, but instead said that they could keep her.
Chris Jericho beat CM Punk to qualify for the chamber. Punk hit a springboard clothesline and huracanrana off the top. Punk went for the GTS but Jericho rolled through. There was a series of pinning attempts. Jericho went for the Walls but Punk escaped. Jericho then hit a botched code breaker for the pin. The match, other than the finish, was good despite being too short.
That brought us to the final segment, and what a segment it was. Stephanie came out, and she’s a bad ass. She said she’s not backing down to Orton, and called him out. Orton isn’t as tough as Stephanie, so he came out with Legacy, his lawyers and his therapist as backup. Orton’s lawyer stood up to Stephanie, but she stared him down and he backed off.
Orton told Stephanie that if she continued, he would lay her out like he laid out her dad. No, actually, that’s what a tough main event heel would do. Instead, he threatened a lawsuit. He said he would get an injunction and have WrestleMania cancelled. All the wrestlers appeared on stage, but Orton said he would take all of them down with him. Orton then begged to be fired so he could file this lawsuit.
Stephanie, of course, stared him down like she was Wanderlei Silva and he was Alexander Otsuka. Stephanie said that firing him would be too easy, and said they had bigger plans. She smiled, and revealed that it wouldn’t be Wanderlei Silva beating up Orton. No, it would be Fedor. Here comes the money! Shane McMahon came out, and all the wrestlers parted so that their savior and last great hope could preserve WrestleMania for them.
Shane McMahon came to ringside, and it was time for an ass whipping. Shane speared Orton, and laid in on him with punches. Legacy tried to hold Shane back, but he fought them both off on his own. He then went back to work on Orton. Rhodes and DiBiase came back into the picture, so he beat them up three on one. Shane then gave Orton this long series of punches and just beat the crap out of Orton. He mounted Orton and fired in more punches. Orton was done, so DiBiase carried Orton to the back.
Shane wasn’t having that. He beat up Rhodes in the ring, and pursued Orton to the stage, where he commenced once more with the beatdown. He kept beating up Orton on the stage. Kofi tried to stop Shane, so Shane beat up Kofi for good measure. And that was the show. I swear to God. I couldn’t make this stuff up. It seriously happened. Oh, and I should mention that Shane gassed about 30 seconds into this beatdown, and his punches looked absolutely dreadful from then on. And also that the crowd didn’t react to this at all. No cheers. There was just a whole lot of collective disbelief at just how egotistical and insecure the McMahons are.
Final Thoughts:
This was the worst booked episode of Monday Night Raw that I can ever recall: a perfect storm of incompetence and egotism run amok.
The Big News: TNA Impact ain’t got nothing on this shit.
Show Analysis:
Randy Orton came out with Legacy, lawyers and a therapist. Yes, you read that right. He first wanted to discuss what happened last week on Raw. Apparently what happens with the McMahons is more important than the title and the WrestleMania main event. Orton says that he has IED, and read a statement explaining what that is. It was totally goofy to the point it was like comedy.
Orton blamed what happened to Vince on IED and said he isn’t responsible. He said his therapist appraised WWE of this condition and WWE did nothing. Orton said that if he’s fired he will sue Stephanie and WWE. He then threatened a second lawsuit, where he will sue for breach of contract if he isn’t put in the Mania main event. He then read a statement apologizing to Vince.
This segment was such an utter disaster on every level. Orton was working phenomenally as a heel because he was this evil, manipulative viper character. It fit him perfectly and was clicking like no other character he’s ever portrayed. So what do they do? They turn him into a chickenshit heel that hides behind lawsuit threats. Besides being a complete 180 to anyone who has watched the show for the last six months, it’s all wrong for Orton. This is what they were doing with Jericho. Orton is not Jericho. He has different skills as a performer. And Jericho as champion drew poor business, so it’s not like this is a glory period we’re trying to recreate.
The only possible explanation I can come up with for this nonsense (other than incompetence or a desire to hold Orton down) is that they’re worried Orton is becoming too much of a face. What is so wrong with some fans cheering him? That’s just the nature of wrestling in 2009, and Orton is able to combat it better than most. And their solution is a failure on every level. It makes him significantly less effective as a heel right now, it will make him even less effective as a face if and when he turns, and it’s so inconsistent with the way he has behaved for months that it’s like he’s not even the same character.
Miz and John Morrison beat Cryme Tyme. The heels worked over JTG, who got the tag to Shad. Shad came in with clotheslines and punches. He gave Morrison a power slam and STO, but Miz broke up the pin. Shad gave Miz a big boot, but Morrison used the opportunity to hit the moonlight drive for the pin.
They announced an elimination chamber match for the Raw title at No Way Out. The idea of elimination chambers at No Way Out is a great one, but it should be for the unclaimed title shots at WrestleMania, not the actual titles. It makes no sense that the challenger is in a better position going into the most important show of the year than the champion, and that’s precisely the situation here.
I’ve never really liked the idea of ostensibly stripping the champion of his title and putting him in a six way match without a very specific and well explained reason, but it is particularly absurd in the final buildup to the biggest show of the year. It makes the title feel like a prop as opposed to a symbol of the best wrestler. Particularly when the participants end up qualifying in a series of nothing three minute TV matches against midcarders.
Moreover, a big match benefits from longer build, and trying to create five title challengers at the same time necessarily creates a gigantic distraction from what you ultimately plan to be your money match just a month later. Having an elimination chamber to fill the vacant title shot augments the benefits of the Rumble; having one for the title undermines the benefits of the Rumble.
Kofi Kingston beat Kane to earn a spot in the elimination chamber. Kane went for a choke slam but Kofi worked his way out and rolled up Kane for the quick pin. Again, this doesn’t do wonders for the significance of the title a month before WrestleMania.
Chris Jericho came out and they aired a clip from The Wrestler. Idiocy then commenced, as Jericho complained about what Mickey Rourke said on the red carpet. They aired a clip of an entertainment reporter asking Rourke about doing something with WWE. Rourke then alluded to coming for Jericho at WrestleMania and cut a comedic promo. I can’t believe they aired this.
The Rourke clip was not him providing any motivation to explain him coming for Jericho. He was just acknowledging he would be doing a wrestling angle. Rourke, the interviewer and anyone watching with a brain knew that he was talking about this program as fake, and I can’t recall a successful wrestling angle that ever started with one of the participants acknowledging that they were about to embark on a fake wrestling angle.
Chris Jericho then said that it’s one thing to pretend to be a wrestler in a movie and it’s another to be a wrestler, which I took to mean Jericho is annoyed that Rourke is coming in to do a program with him. Maybe Jericho can promise to shoot on Rourke and the announcers can talk about how unprofessional Jericho is for not working with Rourke like Vince Russo did in the dying days of WCW at New Blood Rising.
I mean, seriously, this is how they are starting what could be a big program with Mickey Rourke? By airing footage of Mickey Rourke acknowledging that he’s doing a wrestling angle? There are a million fascinating ways to use Rourke, and this is the best they could do?
Backstage, Shawn Michaels and JBL spoke. JBL didn’t like being given the superkick at the Rumble. Michaels said he had to lower John Cena’s guard, and that he did everything he could to help JBL win. JBL said that was a false assumption, but that there was still business to be done. JBL told Michaels to be the showstopper one more time, and earn him a spot in the Elimination Chamber.
John Cena beat Shawn Michaels, so JBL didn’t qualify for the chamber. Michaels and Cena traded punches. Cena went for a bulldog but Michaels avoided it and slapped Cena. Cena slapped him back. Cena went for the FU and STFU but Michaels escaped. Cena hit shoulder blocks and the Cena slam. He went for the five knuckle shuffle, but Michaels grabbed him in the crossface. Cena powered up and tried the FU but Michaels grabbed the ropes.
Cena then applied the STFU, but Michaels got to the ropes. Michaels hit a slam and went for the elbow off the top, at which point JBL inexplicably distracted Michaels by repeatedly telling at him to superkick Cena. When Michaels continued for the elbow, JBL got on the apron to distract him some more. Cena then shoved JBL into Michaels, who fell off the ropes. Cena hit the FU for the pin.
Beth Phoenix and Jillian Hall beat Melina and Kelly Kelly. Santino did commentary. The heels worked over Kelly. Kelly was going for the tag when Rosa came out of nowhere to pull Melina off the apron. Kelly couldn’t make the tag and was given the glam slam for the pin. I liked the clever and unexpected finish here.
Rey Mysterio beat William Regal to qualify for the chamber in a brief match that was good while it lasted. Regal brawled for most of the match with punches and kicks. Rey came back with a 619 and springboard splash for the pin. Backstage, Rosa told Santino she needed to do something for Beth after what happened at the Rumble. Beth teased anger, but instead said that they could keep her.
Chris Jericho beat CM Punk to qualify for the chamber. Punk hit a springboard clothesline and huracanrana off the top. Punk went for the GTS but Jericho rolled through. There was a series of pinning attempts. Jericho went for the Walls but Punk escaped. Jericho then hit a botched code breaker for the pin. The match, other than the finish, was good despite being too short.
That brought us to the final segment, and what a segment it was. Stephanie came out, and she’s a bad ass. She said she’s not backing down to Orton, and called him out. Orton isn’t as tough as Stephanie, so he came out with Legacy, his lawyers and his therapist as backup. Orton’s lawyer stood up to Stephanie, but she stared him down and he backed off.
Orton told Stephanie that if she continued, he would lay her out like he laid out her dad. No, actually, that’s what a tough main event heel would do. Instead, he threatened a lawsuit. He said he would get an injunction and have WrestleMania cancelled. All the wrestlers appeared on stage, but Orton said he would take all of them down with him. Orton then begged to be fired so he could file this lawsuit.
Stephanie, of course, stared him down like she was Wanderlei Silva and he was Alexander Otsuka. Stephanie said that firing him would be too easy, and said they had bigger plans. She smiled, and revealed that it wouldn’t be Wanderlei Silva beating up Orton. No, it would be Fedor. Here comes the money! Shane McMahon came out, and all the wrestlers parted so that their savior and last great hope could preserve WrestleMania for them.
Shane McMahon came to ringside, and it was time for an ass whipping. Shane speared Orton, and laid in on him with punches. Legacy tried to hold Shane back, but he fought them both off on his own. He then went back to work on Orton. Rhodes and DiBiase came back into the picture, so he beat them up three on one. Shane then gave Orton this long series of punches and just beat the crap out of Orton. He mounted Orton and fired in more punches. Orton was done, so DiBiase carried Orton to the back.
Shane wasn’t having that. He beat up Rhodes in the ring, and pursued Orton to the stage, where he commenced once more with the beatdown. He kept beating up Orton on the stage. Kofi tried to stop Shane, so Shane beat up Kofi for good measure. And that was the show. I swear to God. I couldn’t make this stuff up. It seriously happened. Oh, and I should mention that Shane gassed about 30 seconds into this beatdown, and his punches looked absolutely dreadful from then on. And also that the crowd didn’t react to this at all. No cheers. There was just a whole lot of collective disbelief at just how egotistical and insecure the McMahons are.
Final Thoughts:
This was the worst booked episode of Monday Night Raw that I can ever recall: a perfect storm of incompetence and egotism run amok.
posted by Todd Martin at 12:10 AM
42 Comments:
It's incredible. Your rundown of the final segment is so straight and deadpan (aside from the Wanderlei analogy) that I honestly would not have believed all that had happened, and would be looking for the actual report somewhere else, had I not seen it happen live with my own two eyes.
All I got to see of Raw was the final segment, and god damn do I wish I hadn't.
You know how sometimes you'd watch RAW and you're so mad when the show ends that you have to watch something else to erase the bad memory?
I couldn't agree with you more. This was by far the worst-booked edition of the show in a long time. To me, it's beyond aggravating because they had something with Randy Orton. He was just in a league of his own in the past couple of months. Even his delivery at the very end when he got red and yelled at Stephanie's face was a whole new level of amazing. Sadly, the words coming out of his mouth were just pathetic. The whole storyline is pathetic. They killed the best thing they had going, and that's why this is so aggravating!
And by the way, we saw Shane defend his mom when he took on Kane a few years ago. Do we really have to sit through this again?! I mean, they completely RECYCLED the storyline and put Orton in Kane's spot. At least Shane needed a chair to destroy Kane. Now that he's older and fatter, I guess it's no problem to destroy all of Legacy with those vicious punches. That did wonders for Kofi at the end. To get punched out like that. You know, because he's a contender in the ELIMINATION CHAMBER match!
UGH! I feel your anger, Todd, and our Bruins are not having a good basketball season ever. My expectations are lower this year (obviously), but still it's a bit painful to watch some of these games. Have you caught any this year? I'm not even going to bother asking you about your Wizards, your night is bad enough...
HOW COULD THEY FUCK UP ORTON SO BADLY.
Shane McMahon? WHAT THE FUCK.
Sorry for the f sharps Todd, but wow was this beyond ridiculous. SHANE? SHANE MCMAHON!! I laughed so hard when he came out and rolled his sleeves.
Even after all of that IED bullshit, they could have at least salvaged Orton by Shane coming into the ring, and Orton RKOing him. Why the hell would you have Shane beat up Legacy? OH MY GOD, I can't get over this.
...and just when I thought I might start watching WWE again.
I didn't see the show but mean dean's post is right. I couldn't believe what you reported to be true, so I started scouring the Internet for another report. It is hard to believe that a promotion that is so successful can be so incompetent.
I usually LOVE WWE this time of year because they put forth their best storylines for Wrestlemania.
"Having an elimination chamber to fill the vacant title shot augments the benefits of the Rumble"
Sort of. I think they really want to hammer home that the Rumble gets you a shot at Wrestlemania, which is a much bigger deal.
...not that Wrestlemania's going to be worth giving a crap about this year, considering how this show went.
Yeah, that makes sense. Push a young, fresh, new heel faction as main eventers and have them get squashed by the boss's son?
That'll help business.
Yep.
That show was so horrible, there are not enough words in the English language to describe it.
I agree with Eddie T, they really did have something with Orton. Now it may be gone. Why is the WWE so concerned that their top heel may get some cheers? I thought buy rates and attendance mattered. I seem to remember a certain heel "Rattlesnake" get some cheers. How did that work out for them?
And speaking of Austin, if the rumors are true of Austin vs Orton at WM, then they really are dumb. First of all, the Rumble winner does not get a title match. Again. Secondly, are we to believe that Austin will stand-up and defend a McMahon. There's too much history in that storyline to change it now. Who left the window open and let the logic out?
From the moment I saw this show, the first thing that entered my mind was, "Oh, My God... Todd Martin is going to take a diarrhea dump all over this show!"
Things were going so good last week... and then we get THIS!
What the hell year is this? 2000?2001?
Shane McMahon as the ultimate tough guy make me sick. Are we supposed to believe that Shane McMahon is more badass than Jack Bauer, Dirty Harry And Chuck Norris combined? Nothing against Shane personally, but COME ON!
I wonder if Vince will put the title on Mickey Rourke like WCW did for David Arquette... Hey! They've still got the ECW title! Maybe that'll do!
what a great show. They killed Jericho and and Orton, their two top heels, in 2 weeks. I think that's a new record. I'm not watching this show until the McMahons are off it again.
Just wanted to say that I came home last night and I always watch sometimes the last part of Raw, basically the Main Event, cause I don’t even think it’s worth my time watching Raw anymore. I watched the dumbest, illogical and most outrageous thing I have ever watched in my LIFE! I watched this, and I see an out of shape gray haired man (Shane McMahon) come down the ring looking very upset. Thinking to myself, there is no chance he (AGAIN, AN OUT OF SHAPE, non athlete nor wrestler) is going to take all three well condition PROFESSIONAL WRESTLERS. I am thinking well the superstars are out there maybe they will help Shane out, ummm NO, they don’t, they just sit there watching him beat these guys to oblivion all by himself. The hits Shane was making to the Legacy look so unconnected it made those Saturday kung fu flicks look real, I mean out of all my years watching wrestling, Dusty Rhodes trying to run in and fight all of the Horsemen by himself, Stone Cold running against the Corporation by himself and Goldberg running and fighting Evolution by himself, mine you these are well conditioned athletes, no matter how upset they were, they still got overmatched and got beaten up pretty bad. HOW or anyone can explain to me how the hell is this possible! Why should I pay to watch Randy Orton fight for the title in Wrestlemania if he can’t even beat an out of shape weak non wrestling civilian? I think my Raw watching days are over. I will just read your blog to see what’s going on now in wrestling today. Wrestling makes me sick!
You guys have witnessed history, last night was the day that wrestling died, at least in the U.S.
So much to parse, so little time...
Again, I go to the King for my analysis of the "entertainment" action. We see Orton's McPunt replayed for the zillionth time - and Lawler said it's the most "despicable" thing he's ever seen. Really, Jerry? You didn't see or haven't seen Katie Vick, The Kiss My A** Club, Kane setting JR on fire or Stone Cold Steph Levesque attempt to act? I'm just scracthing the top of the horrid-angle turnbuckle here.
Then it dawned on me. Maybe I should give Lawler more credit. Maybe the "despicable" comment was a veiled reference to everything currently going on in the "E". Maybe it was a quiet shoutout to the few of us intelligent, well-meaning adults still trying to give the product some room to operate.
Or maybe not.
As it stands right now, I won't be buying WM25 on PPV, essentially breaking a run of several years of purchaes. Amazingly awful...
- Matt in Anchorage
P.S. - Again, going to the King. He made sure to mention Andy Kaufman during the Jericho-Rourke discussion. Why? How many of the WWE's prized tween demo has any idea what he's talking about?
Logic, people, logic...
Are Vince and his minions really that stupid. What am I not getting?
Hey Todd -
Love the recaps. I usually don't comment, but I just have to after this awful edition of RAW.
My question: Why was Jericho out there with the rest of the RAW roster? Why would he care if Wrestlemania didn't happen? What interest does his character have in anyone besides himself?
It's not just the major, major flaws of RAW that bug, it's the little things like that, too.
Dear God I hope ROH musters even a little television business on HDtv to give Vince and his ego just a little competition. This is so bad it could rival for worse Wrestlemania ever....maybe worse than Wrestlemania 9...
Wow! No mention of killing the IC Title dead after weeks of trying to build it up again? Punk FINALLY wins the title only to lose his first singles match a week later.
Keith
I was in a great mood going into that show, too, after a great weekend of fights and my general expectation that the period between the Rumble and Mania is the best WWE TV of the year.
I’ve caught all the UCLA BB games thus far, Eddie. I’m still optimistic. They just need to open up more on offense. They should be able to get a 3-4 seed in the tourney and from there the defense helps a lot. I gave up on the Wiz a long time ago, but I can’t complain given how incredibly entertaining the Capitals have been this year.
I’m sure that in the end Orton will destroy Shane. But this is not the way I would get there.
“I wouldn’t believe it if I didn’t see it with my own eyes” was exactly what I said myself to friends last night about the show.
I don’t know what the plan is, Mike, but I’m totally with you that Austin coming in as the McMahon’s last hope against Orton is a bad idea. Besides it not really making sense based on the history, we’ve already seen the fans don’t want to see that. They didn’t want to see it when both were heels, and the idea of a face Austin helping them is even worse, even if he stuns them at the end as well.
The idea of Shane beating up all of Legacy himself was indeed absurd and the execution just punctuated the point. I think in a few years it will work as great comedy.
I appreciate the kind words, Kevin. I completely agree with you on Jericho being out there with the rest of the roster in that final segment. My eyes immediately shifted to that and thought the exact same thing. It’s just that when you get a show like this one you have to pick your battles.
The exact same thing applies to Punk winning the IC title and losing the next week clean in a few minutes.
I would assume the days of 5 star matches in Monday Nights are over. Would the Japanese laugh at the WWE product compared to their wrestling out there? Would it go far? Anyways, is there any way I can watch Japanese wrestling besides this crap they provide in the U.S.?
Or even Mexico? Any way I can watch AAA or something than this?
also, forgot to mention this. IED has been linked to steroid use. Smart of the wwe to associate themselves with this.
Japanese wrestling isn't exactly in a great state these days, but you can watch the best NOAH or Dragon Gate stuff online. AAA is available on TV where I am, although CMLL is the better product in Mexico.
That's a hilarious note on IED and steroids.
I apologize if this comes across as too introspective, but I had to get these thoughts out somewhere.
As minutes and hours pass since I viewed and was spellbound by “The Wrestler”, I wish upon wishes that VKM and the “E” leave the film and Rourke’s performance alone. Why acknowledge the film when you produce a product that – at least on the surface – shares nothing in common with the film’s themes and character portrayals as far as I can tell.
Rourke’s “Randy ‘The Ram’ Robinson” is a washed-up, has been – no one can dispute that. Yet the character’s willingness – or maybe it’s realization – to lay everything on the line for limited adulation is equal parts disturbing and inspiring. The film’s story, its human element, grabbed hold of me and hasn’t let go days removed from leaving the theatre.
What does the WWE aspire to other than taking ownership of the dollars in my wallet? Inflating a few egos – we all know who they belong to – and what else? The company is foolish to think it can cash in on something as genuine as the emotional wreckage laid out in the film.
I guess I could direct some anger in Rourke’s direction for seemingly bastardizing his work and “The Wrestler’s” brilliance. But like John Witherspoon said in “Hollywood Shuffle”, “ho’s got to eat too.”
This is no thesis and I’m not sure what I’m trying to say. I guess film and “episodic drama” or whatever the “E” calls it are two different forms of media. Obviously, some fiction is good and well thought out – some isn’t.
Storytelling is more or less what has always intrigued me about professional wrestling, and right now the WWE is doing a horrible job. It’s certainly disappointing.
I only hope “The Wrestler” isn’t scarred by association.
- A somewhat perplexed Matt in Anchorage
Todd, I couldn't agree more. I'd been ignoring the show for quite awhile, aside from reading your recaps or listening to Bryan online, but I figured this time of year is when things get interesting. Last week they bury Jericho after one of the greatest heel runs this old man has seen in a long time. This week, just as it's clear that Orton is now The Guy, they run this bullshit legal angle? I almost wondered if there was some sort of hidden meaning in there; pity the poor corporations and these 'frivolous lawsuits'?
This completely kills off Legacy as anything but a Three Stooges knockoff. How weak did it make Cody and Teddy, who both have a helluva lot of potential? Orton gets KO'd by fucking Shane O'Mac? Is this a rib? How, in any way possible, am I supposed to think of the McMahons as the faces in this? Haven't we seen Vince and Stephanie act like total bastards for years now? People were cheering last week when Orton gave the old man a kick in the head. If Stephanie isn't the most unappealing character working in the business today, I am hard pressed to think of another. She's the face? Man oh manoshevitz. She is the only person alive who has ever made me feel pangs of sympathy for Paul Levesque. He must get a cold chill of recognition up his spine when he sees some of her sneering looks.
Everybody has made great points on this thread; Punk=Buried (did you hear the cheers he was getting, too? ) Jericho is saddled with a joke of an angle, that did not even make any sense (why would Rourke mention his name in any kind of interview? Have they met?), and then comes out with the rest of the job squad to watch all the shenanigans? Cena wasn't there. HBK or JBL either. Why would he care about any of this?
Why, exactly, is Kofi in the Chamber? Has he even won a match this year? Why isn't Punk? He was the fucking World Champion six months ago! Cody and Teddy now have zero credibility. Orton looks like a total chickenshit. And, as an addendum to Mike's point about the Wrestler, I will tell you right now that the word of this angle will kill Rourke's chances at getting the Oscar. Nobody will take him seriously at all. Why is he doing it? I know he needed the money in the past, but this? Oy.
Comparing it to TNA is too kind, young man. I got three words for you; Doubleyou Cee Doubleyou.
Everything posted here is right on the money - and Todd's review couldn't have spoken louder or more clearly.
I would add that we should not forget the influence of Triple H in all of this - or EgoTrips as he should be better known. You know that with his backstage influence, he had a hand in attempting to knock Orton down off this pedestal that the fans are so rightly putting him on. I'm not even talking about where the Orton-Legacy story is going - that's completely destroyed now. I'm talking about a mediocre talent who made a name for himself by marrying into the McMahon family and then - with the nepotistic help of his in-laws - orchestrated himself into the starring role in the WWE. Without them and the pathetic, nonstop push they give him (lapped up by mostly brainless fans), he'd be nowhere. Sadly, in all his years, his star has never shone as brightly as Orton's has in the 5 years or so he has been in the business. And it never will. It's certain he has a hand in keeping Orton from outshining him in the WWE. A good example was at the RR, where he got the Pedigree on Orton, but Orton failed to get the RKO on him. EgoTrips managed to outmuscle both Rhodes and DiBiase after a severe beating - AND, when he was finally eliminated, it was a move from behind by Orton, not a face to face elimination. This is all Triple H orchestration and he's as much to blame for the nonsense that happened on Raw last night as any of his pathetic family. Add to that Steph's lack of talent and Vince's determination to bust fans' balls by doing whatever he wants regardless of the fans' reaction - and you have nothing but horseshit for a show.
Regarding "The Wrestler," let's not forget that McMahon panned this film BEFORE it won those Golden Globes. He swore that the main character and his predicament bore no resemblance to what happens to someone who is part of a major industry like the WWE. After the Golden Globes - and the major interest in the film, McMahon changes his tune. It's good business to try and make a buck off it, I guess, but one still loses major points in character for flip-flopping based on the almighty dollar. Vince McMahon is a loser of the highest order.
Wow. That was epic. Let's count the ways:
1. Orton is now worthless. He just got jobbed out by a pudgy, winded old guy, even though he was being helped by two other wrestlers. I don't care that it wasn't an official match; when you are beaten so badly that you have to be helped out all the way to the back, then you got jobbed.
2. The rest of the entire roster is worthless. Orton threatens to shut down WrestleMania, and they all come out and look sad. They do nothing about it. A pudgy Shane comes out to save all of them, and they meekly step aside and let him take care of the problem on his own. When a fight comes near them, they first just stand there, then they half-heartedly try to break it up, leading to Kofi getting punched out by Shane. They then give up.
3. The IC title is worthless. After attempting to make it mean something, they job Punk to Jericho (last seen on his knees before the almighty Steph) for no good reason.
4. The Royal Rumble is worthless. If you're any sort of name player, you'll get a shot at the title in the Elimination Chamber anyway. If you go into WrestleMania as Raw champ, you fight a guy that can't even take Shane when he's got backup, which is a lose-lose situation.
5. The tag titles are worthless, just chunks of metal worn by guys that lose short non-title matches and win short title matches.
I saw WrestleMania I on close-circuit TV, and I have ordered every WrestleMania since then with the exception of a few years in college where I didn't have pay-per-view, and in those years I would have someone get me a copy. For the first time, I am seriously considering not bothering.
DW is spot on. You just know old insecure Paul played a part in what unfolded last night. I was miffed enough on Sunday when he should have been thrown out by the legacy, leaving Cody and DiBiase to eliminate themselves but Raw was beyond ludicrous.
How Orton looks like a chickenshit heel I don't know. What do you want him to do after punting Vince Mcmahon? Come out and brag about it despite the fact that it would almost certainly get him fired? That wouldn't make sense. He had to have an ace up his sleeve, so he brought the lawsuits out. Remember last week Jericho spoke out against the Mcmahons and was made to grovel and apologise otherwise he would lose his job. So why would Orton allow himself to be put in a position where he could simply be fired? He had to have a back up plan. Also, saying Orton isn't a tough guy because he didn't lay out Stephanie is absurd. A man beating up a defenceless woman would surely make him less of a tough guy. Unless you think being tough is beating up women Todd, I'm not sure.
The final angle was going great UNTIL Shane got involved. However, the WWE were backed into a corner with this angle due to this shitty new PG rating. They can't have Shane come out swinging a chair and taking Legacy out, which would have made for a more believable and better angle, so they kind of had to go for this shitty ending to Raw. If Orton and Legacy had just beaten Shane down, what would be the point? Why would anyone care about the rest of the storyline? Because the Mcmahon's would look totally powerless already. A pissed off Shane going up against Orton isn't actually a bad idea. Ok, we all know Shane won't beat Orton in a match, but it advances the storyline along well enough until No Way Out. We'll likely get a fun match at NWO and then Orton will move onto Cena heading into Mania with the Mcmahon feud playing in the background, with a big swerve possibly on the horizon. It's one week with a bad ending, it's not the end of the world like some of you are making it out to be. Remember on Raw we also got another solid Cena/HBK match, a fun albeit short Punk/Jericho match and a good Rey/Regal bout. The Santino/Beth/Rosa angle is coming along well and Santino remains to be comedy gold week in week out, and the HBK/JBL feud is building to a climax it seems, with each week getting more and more interesting. So just chill out and stop letting a shitty ending to what was otherwise a pretty great angle ruin wrestling for you.
For me, Orton's apology wasn't the problem either - you knew he was just faking it. The problem was the Shane piece, and yes, I do see a huge problem with it. "Backed into a corner?" Please. Creative is a group of buffoons who don't have the collective intelligence to understand the concept of being backed into a plot corner. And what's up with the PG rating thought? They're forced to have Shane come out with his fists and not with a chair because of some PG rating? This doesn't appear to stop Triple H with his sledgehammer. I do not understand that at all. The Shane beatdown was so improbable it was a joke. No way it could have helped the storyline at all. Those shots of Steph nodding her head when he came out - as though she knew that her pansy-ass brother could do anything against Orton - were ridiculous. Shane looked pathetic doing it, wearing himself out like the out-of-shape slob that he is after about 30 seconds. If that's the only alternative the WWE has, well, then, it certainly is close to the end of wrestling.
How about this - bring out a few big names who are (newly) aligned with the McMahons, have them hold Legacy down and let Orton and this other person go at it. Even if Orton lost the scuffle, there would be plenty of room for further development. You could believe him losing to a worthy opponent. That doesn't demean his character. Shane beating him does. An altercation with Shane McMahon goes nowhere, it's laughable, and having Orton lose to him under any circumstances makes Orton look less powerful - and that ain't what's good for where this storyline could go.
Backed into a corner? Hardly. What they did Monday night was simply take Orton's advancement back several huge steps. And again - look to Triple H for the involvement in that.
And in my opinion, the rest of the show was terrible, including the tired Rey match, the ridiculous idea that HBK was any competition for Cena and, as so many other have pointed out - Punk was wasted - here's a guy who is given the chance to shine when he won the title and then he loses so easily? WTF? And I don't even like the guy...
DW... I have to say the whole Triple H holding Orton down theory is priceless (no pun intended). Typical IWC garbage that never fails to make me laugh due to it's utter stupidity. Also, how is it a ridiculous notion that HBK is any competition for Cena? Didn't HBK beat Cena a couple of weeks ago? It's not as if Cena was facing Jimmy Wang Yang or Jamie Noble. Also, who would you have brought out to align themselves with the Mcmahons? Because this feud is lasting til NWO and then Orton is focusing on Cena with the Mcmahon thing rumbling alongside, so why have other superstars mixed up in it and getting in the way of the Mania main event build? Also, I think it's very possible we'll get a swerve at Mania and have at least one of the Mcmahon's align themselves with the Legacy. Maybe even before Mania... who knows. All the Mcmahons (sans Linda) fall into the Legacy category. Think about it. It's one poorly done angle, get over it.
Nothing to get over, Baia. It's clear you don't read between the lines or watch the programs carefully. There's no question that Triple H wants to be the star of the WWE. He married into the family and so he must have a huge influence on what happens on these shows. It's no secret that he's Vince's right hand man. Absolutely no question about it. Hmmmm...he has creative influence and he's always got the big spots, never looks bad, always the last one to leave a house show, high-fiving fans (I could go on). So with that ego, anyone becoming a bigger name than he is going to be in his sights. Mind you, I think he does this in a subtle way - although I would not have been surprised if it had been him coming out to give Orton the beatdown on the last Raw. But, you can believe want you want - my theory is very, very probable.
HBK? He looks like a tired old man. He's been around too long and there's no way he could possibly beat Cena legitmately. He's given his winning spots because he's shoved down fans' throats - and most fans are imbeciles. Look at the crap they cheer. They eat him up because the WWE promotes it that way - and then to "keep the fans happy" as so many Internet writers opine, he almost always wins. And, like Trips, when he doesn't, there's a reason why he lost that doesn't equate with lack of skill. But against Cena? I maintain my position. I won't even go into the silly story they are working with JBL. No sense, no reason, no possible outcome that would be logical. But the average fan (read: imbecile) will still eat it up. They come to these shows as though they're attending a rock concert. They just want to "hear the big hit." They're not interested in a story, or competition. They just want to see sweet chin music, or the 619 or Trips with his sledgehammer - the PG rated thing, remember?
As far as suggesting someone to fill in for Shane, I left that open because I honestly don't know who I would have
picked. The thought came to me because YOUR idea that the WWE was backed into a corner and there was nothing else possible but a beatdown by Shane was totally off the wall. Anything would have been better than that. If they had a good creative team, perhaps such an idea could have been fleshed out - don't put me on the spot for trying to find an alternative - in the space of this blog - to the silly shenanigans they decided on. But here's a thought - there's tons of new talent out there - and the WWE desperately needs something new. The same old crap every week is getting tiresome. Perfect opportunity to give someone new a chance and expand the story instead of having Orton get the crap kicked out of him by an out-of-shape windbag who can barely act, let alone throw a punch. I hardly think adding a new element into all of this will take away from what is building.
What a total shambles
It takes months, years to build a character and their reputability, it takes a shitty storyline written by idiots, accepted by bigger idiots to kill their character.
Orton, an athlete at the top of his game, with two similar guys as backup, all getting beat up by some grey haired, out of shape non athlete was so depressing to watch, made worse by the fact Orton had won the Royal Rumble the night before with Rhodes and DiBiase 3rd and 4th. I don't see why Shane doesn't just become a wrestler, because there is nothing stopping him after that, aside from Mr Ego Triple H, and probably Cena too.
Why would they give a big knock to the biggest and best two heels they have? One can only think a heel turn is in the offing for one of Triple H or Vince.
I have been watching WWF/WWE on and off for the best part of 10 years, and never have I felt so pissed off.
The fact that the WWE title is just a secondary basis of the show is sickening. Cena as champion is a joke, but these days I don't really care.
It's not like their is a decent alternative to this crap, as TNA is a shambles too. As a person who can't seem to stop watching, it is very painful on my brain. Other "addicts" will understand :)
DW, keep this stuff coming. You're one big IWC cliche. It's really something. HHH had already been World champ a couple of times before he even began going out with Stephanie, so he was an established main eventer already, he was already a star. If everything had to be about him, why would be bother putting Batista over 3 times in a row CLEAN in '05? And why did he bother putting Cena over a couple of times back in '06? Jesus, he didn't even have a Title run for 3 years until he won the strap at Backlash last year (discounting his 2 hour run with the belt at No Mercy 2007).
So, to suggest everything has to be about HHH, even the stuff happening on shows he's not a part of, is ludicrous. Orton looked weak this one time, and yes, the Mcmahons had to look strong somehow this week, cos if Orton and Priceless mowed down Shane too, then what would there be left to do in the feud that would make people interested in it?
Remember, Orton punted Vince, went onto win the Rumble and then threatened severe legal action if he was fired. So he was on a major hot streak against the Mcmahons. He was holding a lot of aces. So Shane attacking Legacy was really one of the only ways they could go. However, like I've said, they did go about it in a terrible way this week, but it's far from the end of the world. Me personally, I would have had Shane jump Priceless from behind earlier in the show, leaving Orton alone in the ring, and then have Shane come through the crowd and take him out as well. That way, Legacy don't look weak as they were all jumped unawares, and Shane looks like he'll do anything to get even, but knows he can't just face them face to face as he'll be outgunned.
So yeah, obviously the scenario creative went with didn't make sense, but I think they pretty much had to go with a Shane beatdown, just obviously didn't do it in the right way. Don't get a hard on over it. If The Big Bossman stealing Big Show's dead dad or the Katie Vick angle didn't ruin wrestling, why would this?
Also, HBK isn't a credible threat because he looks old? Nevermind the fact that he's still an incredible performer despite all the injuries he's suffered and still is capable of putting on great matches. You must really hate Japan where guys like Misawa and Kobashi have been running around forever.
As for the average wrestling fan being an imbecile. WOW. So the fact you're above the average fan when it comes to watching men in tights pretend to fight each other must mean I should take whatever you say seriously. Jesus. Any credibility you had in this argument went right out the window when you came up with that little gem of wisdom.
Oh, and DW, as for HHH's star not shining as bright as Orton's has done in his time with the company, is that the same star that was shining for Orton when he was caught smoking weed on WrestleMania weekend 3 years ago? How about when he trashed that hotel room on a European tour a couple of years ago? He's been suspended twice in those short five years or so. HHH meanwhile, is obviously the devil for staying behind and high fiving fans. Because obviously he should ignore the paying customers and not interact with them at all. Jesus, the guy's a monster!
To begin with Baia, you might want to consider offering your own opinions without putting words into other people's mouths. I didn't state that everything had to be about Triple H, I stated that he wanted to be the biggest star on the program, in fact all of the WWE.
That said, what does it matter that Triple H was a World champ a couple of times? There's no denying that. And it has nothing to do with my argument here. My opinion is that he wants to make sure he's the #1 guy in the WWE right now, and that doesn't necessarily mean holding a title. It could, but more importantly, it means always looking good, whether a face or a heel (you think if Trips turns heel he'll get the same characteristics as some of these other guys who have to act like cowards or always cheat to win?). It means constantly being in the limelight. Established main eventer he was before going out with Steph, but again you miss my point. It's after he married her that he became a significant influence backstage - and you totally blew over that point. (And I'm sure some of his past successes were due to his relationship with her.) That's where the Triple H trouble starts. And putting over Batista? Putting over Cena? Well, you may not realize you support my point with that. Why Trips? Why Trips to put them over? Why not someone else? Nobody else can lose to make Batista and Cena look good? No, it's up to Triple H to save the day. Another small thing to add to his repertoire to make him the big man of the WWE. There's just too many things he's involved in. And for the record, I repeat, it doesn't always have to be about him. They need a few other big names to keep the company solvent, so everybody can't get the Triple H beatdown - but a lot of them do.
Shane attacking Legacy as the only way to go? Sheezus, Baia, you must be part of the nitwit creative team who can't come up with anything complicated, or at least recognize a bizarre idea when they hear it. I'll just go back to my original statement and reiterate, it wasn't the only idea in the world left for that storyline. In fact, it was one of the stupidest. It was the only idea they shouldn't have selected. Shane ended up looking a fool and he'll have to live it down as it's repeated over and over on youtube. Plus it did zip for the story - a waste of time and it knocked Orton back a few notches. Not the smartest of moves right now.
And yes, Baia, the average wrestling fan is an imbecile. Not everyone, mind you, but the average fan? Yes. You see it on every show as you watch them applaud the same crap, sit like dolts when people make entrances - the buffoons don't even know enough to jeer some of the bad guys. They just sit there and chant "boring" when people, usually newcomers, are trying to entertain them. Cheering the same tired schticks - like the ridiculous hot tag - over and over. If that makes me above them, then perhaps I am - but it's your opinion that elevated me there, not my own. I'm just calling it as I see it.
On to Orton's star shining. Yes, the man's allegedly had some trouble - but nobody knows the entire story. But let's assume the problems are legit. I'm talking about his time in the ring. On television. And no matter how many hotel rooms he may have trashed, how much weed he may have smoked, when it comes time to performing, he delivers. And that's where it counts - not in his personnel file. I love the way you spin it, Baia, comparing Trips high-fiving fans to Orton trashing hotel rooms. Apples and oranges. Eliminate Orton's alleged misdeeds and scratch all of Triple H's PR posturing and put them side by side in the ring. Compare things that should be compared. Trips has one move - the Pedigree, that's about as silly looking as you can get. Oh, but he can spit water and arrange the lighting to reduce the bloat in his body. Exciting! Orton is a skilled wrestler with a good selection of moves and he can move his butt in that ring. Oh yes, and he can make an entrance too. I'd say Orton has him there - and I think Trips knows it.
I feel the need to weigh in and agree with both DW and SteRDLK among others on some of these points. First of all - THE FACTS: Triple H runs the shows. He sits in on all the Creative Meetings which is obviously a conflict of interest – for both RAW and SD. And he always makes sure he’s cast in the best light. So if Orton looked like a fool on the last RAW, Triple H was certainly a part of that decision. It’s false to believe he wasn’t. Now it is true Trips did put over Batista – and in fact – he still talks about it. He’s been in the WWE something like 100 years and he’s made one big sacrifice so he could brag about making Batista a star. Who else does that? Who else talks about their big sacrifice to make someone a star? Also, remember word leaked out that Trips had a snit about his last feud with Cena and as part of agreeing to go to Smackdown, he insisted he had to win their rematch. So even Cena, the face of the company, has to bow to him. As far as Triple H’s success prior to marriage, Vince remained loyal to both Trips and HBK because they never jumped to WCW when Vince’s shows were getting their asses kicked by Ted Turner and he was signing all the good talent. The truth is WCW never offered Trips or HBK a job. That’s why they stayed. It’s funny they spin it differently though. And as far as the comments about HBK – and I don’t mean to put words in anyone’s mouth – but I see it this way. For wrestling to truly work now that it’s so blatantly fake – it has to mirror some realism to hold your interest. In reality, Cena would break HBK. Just like Orton and the cast of RAW losing to Shane is unrealistic and ridiculous. But in the WWE Universe, where Hornswoggle can pin Mark Henry or Rey Mysterio can get someone draped over the ropes in EVERY SINGLE MATCH to hit a 619, then yes, HBK beating Cena is certainly plausible.
I won’t reiterate the farce of Orton and Shane, but I would like to elaborate on an idea presented already. Personally, I think after Orton’s declaration that he couldn’t be fired or he’d sue it should have stopped. Then he could have been a pain in Steph’s side for months. Just like Stone Cold terrorized Vince – which of course never made sense because why didn’t Vince just fire him? (There is no logic in these stories but as “addicts” we must watch). However, if they had to take it further, then have Shane come out, take off his jacket etc. (By the way, last time we saw them, Shane and Steph hated each other – now Steph’s cheering on her brother). Once Shane appeared to be headed to the ring (which should have made Orton laugh), he could have stepped aside and had someone come in to surprise Orton and beat him up. Who? I don’t know. They had RVD back at Royal Rumble. Why not try Lashley, Test or even Masters? How about Randy Couture or some MMA star? Someone with the size that could have believably beaten Orton in a surprise attack. The fans would have gone crazy. It could have lead to a feud where Orton eventually triumphs and goes on to WM. Of course, Ted and Cody would have had to be restrained since only Shane can beat up all three at once.
So, as the story was presented, it was foolish and it made no sense. One brainstorming session on this blog and I think we came up with better ideas. Which leads me to a conclusion, the Creative team could have come up with better ideas too but they chose not to. They chose to stroke Shane’s ego and belittle Orton, Ted and Cody. This wasn’t just a stupid move because they had no other way to go, this was deliberate. And since most of us see how absurd it was, I suspect they knew that too but someone – (and I suspect Triple H) – wanted to keep Orton from becoming too popular and from Legacy eclipsing Evolution or DX . It must kill Trips that Orton is cheered when he’s supposed to be a heel and they continue to come up with the most despicable things for him to do and yet the fans are enamored with him. If anyone remembers the days when Trips was a heel, he was never humiliated. He never looked bad. He never ran scared. He was a heel with a different set of rules. To think that the absurdity wasn’t well orchestrated to make Orton look weak is just naïve in my opinion.
Right, let me just pick you apart once again DW. Triple H has one move? So the facebuster, high knee, spinebuster and neckbreaker he regularly uses in his matches don't count do they? Since when did a huge moveset define how great a wrestler is? Ric Flair's offense was centred around knife edge chops, chopblocks, a few suplexes here and there and the figure 4, yet he's the considered the greatest wrestler there ever was. How about Steve Austin? Did you see Austin veer away from punching and stomping and stunnering? Very rarely. Orton's moveset isn't even that vast, so bringing up movesets as some sort of defining way of comparing Orton to HHH is nonsensical.
HHH had received a big push and World Titles before Stephanie. Him being with Stephanie has no doubt helped him cement his place in the main event, but let's face it, the guy belongs in the main event. Over the past 10 years he's been involved in some incredible feuds and matches. You make out like he's not talented in the slightest and is holding everyone and their mother down. Why would HHH, who tried so hard to get Orton over in 04 and then put him over in 07 at No Mercy, cleanly I may add, want to make him look foolish. Why, if HHH is likely to inherit the company along with Steph and Shane once Vince passes on, would he want to make the top stars look foolish? Because surely, if they look foolish and weak, then that only puts people off surely? So by making people look foolish, that drives away fans, which in turn drives away a ton of money. Yeah, HHH really wants to make Orton look silly.
As for why did HHH have to be the guy to put over Batista and Cena. Who else could have done it? He was the top heel on Raw in '05, so who else could have put Batista over and it have the same effect? Same in 06 only by that time he was more of a tweener in the Cena feud, however there was no one on Raw who could have put Cena over that would have gained him any credibility.
You're more of an imbecile than these average fans you mock. Because how are they any different from people going to a rock concert and cheering for all their favourite songs and cheering for their favourite band members when they enter the stage? How is someone cheering seeing the 619 any different from a soccer fan cheering a goal at a game? At the end of the day, goals are just as common in football as the 619 is in wrestling. If fans didn't cheer or respond to that type of stuff, then what would be the point in them being there? The fact is, without these so called 'imbeciles' there would never have been any wrestling for you to watch. Jesus, they're just people going to enjoy a show, what's so wrong with that? And what's wrong with portions of the crowd cheering heels? Does everyone HAVE to boo the heels and cheer the babyfaces? Did no one ever tell you about freedom of speech? It applies to wrestling fans too you know.
Also, John, I bet HHH and HBK are crying over not being offered a job in WCW now. Assuming of course that that is indeed true and they never were sounded out by Turner, then who looks worse? HHH and HBK for being hugely successful in WWF/E or Turner for bringing in the likes of Nash and Hogan and having his company run into the ground. It's like a football team over here in England called Blackburn Rovers. They once sent one of their scouts to check out Zinedine Zidane when he was playing at Bordeaux in France. The scout wasn't impressed by Zidane and Blackburn didn't make an offer. Zidane then went onto become one of the greatest players the world of football has ever seen, winning countless accolades. Do you think the fact Blackburn Rovers didn't want to sign him at one point haunts him?
And for the record, HHH was with WCW before he went to the WWF. I imagine he'd seen enough there to never want to go back, if what I've read and heard from countless wrestlers through shoot interviews and autobiographies is anything to go by.
The difference between a goal being scored versus the 619 is the fact that when people score goals, the goalie doesn't fall down and put themselves in an obvious position to be scored on while the person kicking the goal waits ten seconds to look to the crowd.
The logic behind it is ridiculous. I personally have the same beef with the People's Elbow or Cena's Five Knuckle Shuffle; they're ridiculous moves that completely remove you from the psychology of the match. Flair did it to with his Flair Flip...however even he mixed it up now and then.
I liked it when Knox was wrestling Rey a few weeks ago and actually caught Rey on the 619 and proceeded to destroy him. Good for Rey in allowing Knox to get over and look like a monster by cutting off his big 'crowd pleasing' move. This is what The E needs more of: logic in the match. Because obviously someone as giant as Knox isn't going to be phased my Mysterio, get knocked down, and conveniently end up in the 619 position...it was breath of fresh air in a throw away match because it actually came across as if the wrestlers scout matches and don't just play by all-too-obvious script.
Sorry, just wanted to chime in with the 619 versus goal-scoring comparison.
I think we can all agree that Trips is getting to the point where he needs to start putting people over on a regular basis. Putting people will not hurt his status whatsoever, however he is Hoganing it up right now, convincing the top people who he is close to that he is still a top draw. He reluctance to put ANYONE over in his short stint on Smackdown is evidence enough for me that he is scared of how irrelevant he is becoming and how tightly he is trying to hold onto the top spot, even though it's obvious the fans the E caters to much prefer Jeff Hardy.
Just come to terms with the fact that Triple H, as he is now (there's no doubt he had amazing matches from 1999-2001), is just as stale as Hogan, Nash, JJ, and all of the other dinosaurs were who brought down WCW.
One last thing: I think we can all agree, too, that the television product is in dire need of a shot in the arm. Thinking back on when I got back into wrestling (I took some time off from '02-'06) everything kind of blurs together for me. Sadly the economy tells me we have another two years AT LEAST of Trips and Cena as the top guys. These two have single handily killed the significance of the belt with how often these things change hands. And don't get me started on just why Cena has to now defend the title in the Elimination Chamber. Ugh. Awful stuff. But hey, I still watch...
Well HBK did want to leave WWE to go to WCW because all his boys were there but his contract was not letting him out and I am sure WCW would have been happy to give both HHH and HBK a contract since they wanted to get all the top stars away from WWE. Also, Ric Flair did have more moves than that and also he made people in the ring he was against look good, also Austin (before the injuries) was an awesome wrestler, shoot Bret Hart had only three moves but he was still a great technical wrestler and an entertainer . HHH was a good wrestler, one time, also limited cause of his injury but unlike Austin, Bret, Ric, or Rock he is not entertaining. HHH only does his entertainment by hitting below the belt, intentionally, and hurts the wrestlers’ credibility. True he gave Cena and Batista a push but he only did it just to do it. He didn’t have the belt for three years because they knew he was getting stale. No one wanted to see him as champion over and over and he knew that. He just waited, while waiting he made sure that no one else can be a bigger star than him until he gets his title run back. Just think about it, you really think HHH would let Shane McMahon run him over like that? HHH wouldn’t let Goldberg shine so I don’t think he would have Shane do that unless it was under Vince’s approval. He had done more damage than good. He only put over two wrestlers. WOW what a great guy! Though that’s better than Hogan because I don’t think he put anyone over besides the Warrior. So if you are comparing him to Hogan than maybe he is doing what is right for the business but other than that………..? Flair would put a lot of wrestlers over and make them look good in the ring. That’s the difference between a Flair and a HHH or anyone in that matter.
I can't wait to see what kind of nonsense the creative team - with the help of Triple H - will cook up this week to continue to ruin Raw. Rather than trying to cash in on what the crowd is loving, and find interesting and believable storylines to back up the wrestling (instead of dominating it), the preference seems to be to continue with the feeble plots they have set in motion - they're determined not to listen to the fans. One, because they are astonishingly untalented and two, because the influence of Triple will always be there to make sure he isn't upstaged as the premier performer of the WWE (in his own mind, of course) regardless of its effect on the programming. It certainly seems to appear that way.
Ha, DW, you just get more and more absurd. I think I can quite safely call you an imbecile. Being a SmackDown superstar, when will HHH have the time to sit in on all these Raw creative meetings? I mean, between the SD! tapings every Tuesday and the house shows I'm assuming he appears on also, that doesn't leave too much time when you factor in travelling as well. Also remember he's a father of 2, I'm sure his priorities aren't him being the star of the entire company so everyone else looks stupid. HHH is a smart guy, why would he want to make other guys look ridiculous? It only harms him because all the other guys looking stupid puts people off the product and therefore they won't take HHH as seriously because these other idiots that he apparently decides have to look stupid are no competition to him.
As for the old "HHH doesn't put anyone over" argument that has also been brought up by a couple of people... well apart from Batista and Cena, let's see who else Hunter has laid down for from 2000 onwards;
The Rock
'Taker
Kurt Angle
Kane
Hogan
HBK
Goldberg
Chris Benoit
Orton
Shelton Benjamin
Ric Flair
Jeff Hardy
Not exactly a short list is it? And besides, as I said, the guy's a main eventer, he shouldn't be putting over guys willy nilly. You don't see Taker doing that and you didn't see guys like Austin or The Rock doing it, same with Hart, same with Flair and further back than that. If your main eventers are jobbing all the time, then why are they main eventers in the first place?
Great stuff by creative to follow up with the absymal 1/26/09 show. Sinking deeper and deeper into the muck, but I guess nobody has the balls to buck Triple H or the rest of the egomaniacal McMahons to come up with more plausible and entertaining storylines.
Thats a great list of names besides Shelton and Kane those names Vince knew he will make money off them and were WAY better entertainers than HHH was and it was the right choice at the right time and AGAIN those names are bigger names than HHH. I mean look at it dude he has been main eventing all the Wrestlemanias a couple of years straight not cause he is great and the only guy to lead the ship he is putting his influences influences there. Come on man! Your right he is smart meaning smart in making himself be the only top guy!
So HHH Hater, how much money has Vince made off Chris Benoit then who I mentioned in that list? Let's see, the guy was a superb worker, but wasn't a draw, and to top it off, he ended up being a child killer, so I'd say that voids your point off Vince knowing he'd make plenty of money off Benoit.
Goldberg being a better entertainer than HHH is a laugh as well.
How about Jeff Hardy? Ok the guy has been on a role over the past 18 months and I personally think he's improved a TON. But why do you think that is? Maybe working programmes with guys like HHH? I mean, Hardy was a great spot monkey in the early part of this century, and then got hooked on God knows what and was released and since his return has 2 suspensions to his name. So, I'd hardly say Vince knew he'd make more money off Hardy. Plus, Hardy doing a lot of insane spots doesn't make him a better entertainer than HHH.
HHH is a draw, he makes the company money and has been involved in some of the biggest programmes of the past decade. He's earned his spot as far as I'm concerned, and if he was a lousy wrestler and entertainer, I'm sure Vince wouldn't stand for it, son in law or otherwise, he doesn't want a guy at the top of his card driving away fans and losing him money, and as far as I'm aware,HHH hasn't done any of those things.
DW, give up whilst you're a million miles behind. You're either joking with your posts on here or you're a fantastic IWC cliche.
HHH Hater...some good points there! I'm sure we'll see more and more of the inanity as the weeks ahead unfold. I'm just waiting for Triple H's involvement in this whole Orton-Stephanie-Shane disaster.
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