Raw Report
Date: 07/02/07 from Dallas, TX.
The Big News: WWE’s wellness policy is legitimate, dammit. The company clearly tries to discourage steroid use, and there is no need for anyone to step in. Oh, and Bobby Lashley is challenging for the WWE Title at the Great American Bash.
Conclusive Finishes: 5 of 7.
Show Analysis:
Mr. Kennedy came out to start the show. He said he should be the WWE champion, but he didn’t get to cash in Money in the Bank. He blamed the fans for pressuring him to compete when he wasn’t ready. That’s a nice logical way to explain his current motivation as a heel. Kennedy said now he will just serve himself, and that he will be the next WWE champion. That brought out John Cena, who labeled Kennedy “Mr. Camel Toe.” Oh, the hilarity. Cena said it isn’t the people’s fault he lost his title shot, but rather Kennedy’s. He said he doesn’t trust or like Kennedy.
King Booker came out, and said he should be the next challenger. He added that he beat Cena and made him kiss his feet. Randy Orton was next out, and said he has never received a one on one title shot against Cena. He said he deserves the shot. Lashley was next. He said he never lost the ECW Title, and therefore he is the uncrowned champion. He said he wants to be WWE champion and won’t rest until he takes it. William Regal was the last one out, and he said he was in charge. He announced a beat the clock challenge to determine the number one contender for the Great American Bash.
Randy Orton beat Jeff Hardy in 7:06. Jeff hit a baseball slide and pescado early. Orton retaliated with a clothesline and Garvin stomp. He then went for an extended rest hold which made no sense at all and even the announcers were saying as much. Jeff came back with a mule kick and whisper in the wind. He went for the twist of fate, but it was reversed into an RKO for the pin. That was a cool finish to end a solid match.
Melina beat Maria. Candice watched from the announce table. Maria hit a Thesz press and choked Melina. Melina used a giant swing, weak curb stomp, knees, punches and forearms. Maria made a comeback with knees and a bulldog, but Melina caught her with the splits leg drop for the pin. They worked hard, but this was really sloppy. Melina and Candice had a confrontation after the match. Melina attacked Candice, but Candice fought her off.
They ran the first of two packages on HHH, who will be returning soon. Dusty Rhodes backstage introduced his son Cody to Hacksaw Jim Duggan. Randy Orton approached, and said one day Cody can be better than Dusty just like Randy is better than Bob, Jr. Cody told Orton to stay away from his dad. Dusty called Orton disrespectful, so Orton slapped him. Cody was angry about this. I like the potential of this program, but I hope they don’t have Cody in there before he is ready.
Umaga beat Santino in basically a squash. Santino checked in on Maria backstage before the match. Maria was more concerned for him facing Umaga. Santino said people don’t take him seriously, so he has to prove he deserves to be the Intercontinental champ. He gave Maria a kiss. Santino started the match with some kicks, but he got caught. Umaga went to work with chops and a nerve hold. Santino came off the top but got caught in a Samoan drop, which was an impressive spot. Umaga used some additional punches, his running butt drop, and the Samoan spike for the pin. I think that’s the end of the Santino “push.”
King Booker beat Val Venis in 4:30. The announcers tried their best to get over Val Venis as a threat, bless their hearts. I think they’re happy with him just as solid enhancement talent, but it goes without saying that if they want to push him at some point he needs to be repackaged. Val got in a lot of offense with a back suplex, knees, punches and a neck breaker. Booker finished him with a scissors kick.
Super Crazy defeated Mr. Kennedy. Backstage, Kennedy tried to convince Crazy to lay down for him. Crazy wasn’t having it. When the match started, Kennedy got on the microphone to talk trash rather than going after Crazy. Crazy rolled him up from behind for the pin in seconds. I hate these types of fluke finishes. They never get over the guy who wins. They sometimes hurt the guy who loses. And they always make match results look less significant. Dusty Rhodes challenged Randy Orton to a match next week.
Carlito beat the Sandman via DQ. Prior to the match, Carlito was backstage complaining about the Sandman. Sandman approached Carlito and said he likes to drink and fight. Carlito spit apple in Sandman’s face, Sandman spit beer in Carlito’s face, and Ron Simmons said damn. Seriously, I think this scene was the whole impetus for Sandman coming to Raw and feuding with Carlito in the first place. In the match, Carlito went for the Singapore cane. The referee stopped him, Sandman got the cane, and hit Carlito with it for the disqualification.
Bobby Lashley beat Shelton Benjamin with 24 seconds to spare to win beat the clock. King Booker made an agreement with Benjamin before the match that if Benjamin held off Lashley he would receive the first title shot when Booker wins the WWE title. Benjamin stalled a lot early. Lashley hit an overhead belly to belly. Benjamin countered a back drop into a DDT, which was a really cool spot. Lashley went for the power slam, but Benjamin escaped. However, he did not escape a spear, and Lashley covered for the pin.
William Regal came out for the contract signing. John Cena said it would be a great match and he is looking forward to it. Lashley said that makes two, and signed. King Booker and Mr. Kennedy then interrupted. Lashley and Cena fought them off, but Lashley then speared Cena from behind. The move was booed and seemed to be greeted as a heel turn by some, but I really don’t think it was intended that way.
Final Thoughts:
In the current climate, just about the last guy that I would set up for a push as the next title challenger is Bobby Lashley. It’s beyond stupid. I don’t really care for the push of roided up muscleheads in the first place because I think it leads to a less entertaining product. But there is incredible media scrutiny on steroid use in WWE, and the big story today was the massive quantity of steroids that Chris Benoit was taking leading up to him murdering his family. Given that reality, the decision to continue a massive push of a walking neon steroid billboard is absolutely idiotic.
This was the first edition of Raw since all the news broke last week. If anyone from the media or the real world tuned in to see how WWE handled the situation, they had their negative stereotypes about the industry confirmed. WWE can’t possibly be serious about steroids when this is who they are pushing.
Aside from people outside the business, it sends a clear message to people inside the business as well. No matter how much bad publicity WWE received in the past week, Vince McMahon is as wedded to physiques as ever before, even if it means pushing mediocre wrestlers who can’t talk and have very little charisma. Even if Vince gives the roster a pep talk about how they are serious about cutting down on drugs, how can you possibly take him seriously when the featured performer on the first show since all this broke is the most jacked up guy on the entire roster?
Other than that, I liked the show.
The Big News: WWE’s wellness policy is legitimate, dammit. The company clearly tries to discourage steroid use, and there is no need for anyone to step in. Oh, and Bobby Lashley is challenging for the WWE Title at the Great American Bash.
Conclusive Finishes: 5 of 7.
Show Analysis:
Mr. Kennedy came out to start the show. He said he should be the WWE champion, but he didn’t get to cash in Money in the Bank. He blamed the fans for pressuring him to compete when he wasn’t ready. That’s a nice logical way to explain his current motivation as a heel. Kennedy said now he will just serve himself, and that he will be the next WWE champion. That brought out John Cena, who labeled Kennedy “Mr. Camel Toe.” Oh, the hilarity. Cena said it isn’t the people’s fault he lost his title shot, but rather Kennedy’s. He said he doesn’t trust or like Kennedy.
King Booker came out, and said he should be the next challenger. He added that he beat Cena and made him kiss his feet. Randy Orton was next out, and said he has never received a one on one title shot against Cena. He said he deserves the shot. Lashley was next. He said he never lost the ECW Title, and therefore he is the uncrowned champion. He said he wants to be WWE champion and won’t rest until he takes it. William Regal was the last one out, and he said he was in charge. He announced a beat the clock challenge to determine the number one contender for the Great American Bash.
Randy Orton beat Jeff Hardy in 7:06. Jeff hit a baseball slide and pescado early. Orton retaliated with a clothesline and Garvin stomp. He then went for an extended rest hold which made no sense at all and even the announcers were saying as much. Jeff came back with a mule kick and whisper in the wind. He went for the twist of fate, but it was reversed into an RKO for the pin. That was a cool finish to end a solid match.
Melina beat Maria. Candice watched from the announce table. Maria hit a Thesz press and choked Melina. Melina used a giant swing, weak curb stomp, knees, punches and forearms. Maria made a comeback with knees and a bulldog, but Melina caught her with the splits leg drop for the pin. They worked hard, but this was really sloppy. Melina and Candice had a confrontation after the match. Melina attacked Candice, but Candice fought her off.
They ran the first of two packages on HHH, who will be returning soon. Dusty Rhodes backstage introduced his son Cody to Hacksaw Jim Duggan. Randy Orton approached, and said one day Cody can be better than Dusty just like Randy is better than Bob, Jr. Cody told Orton to stay away from his dad. Dusty called Orton disrespectful, so Orton slapped him. Cody was angry about this. I like the potential of this program, but I hope they don’t have Cody in there before he is ready.
Umaga beat Santino in basically a squash. Santino checked in on Maria backstage before the match. Maria was more concerned for him facing Umaga. Santino said people don’t take him seriously, so he has to prove he deserves to be the Intercontinental champ. He gave Maria a kiss. Santino started the match with some kicks, but he got caught. Umaga went to work with chops and a nerve hold. Santino came off the top but got caught in a Samoan drop, which was an impressive spot. Umaga used some additional punches, his running butt drop, and the Samoan spike for the pin. I think that’s the end of the Santino “push.”
King Booker beat Val Venis in 4:30. The announcers tried their best to get over Val Venis as a threat, bless their hearts. I think they’re happy with him just as solid enhancement talent, but it goes without saying that if they want to push him at some point he needs to be repackaged. Val got in a lot of offense with a back suplex, knees, punches and a neck breaker. Booker finished him with a scissors kick.
Super Crazy defeated Mr. Kennedy. Backstage, Kennedy tried to convince Crazy to lay down for him. Crazy wasn’t having it. When the match started, Kennedy got on the microphone to talk trash rather than going after Crazy. Crazy rolled him up from behind for the pin in seconds. I hate these types of fluke finishes. They never get over the guy who wins. They sometimes hurt the guy who loses. And they always make match results look less significant. Dusty Rhodes challenged Randy Orton to a match next week.
Carlito beat the Sandman via DQ. Prior to the match, Carlito was backstage complaining about the Sandman. Sandman approached Carlito and said he likes to drink and fight. Carlito spit apple in Sandman’s face, Sandman spit beer in Carlito’s face, and Ron Simmons said damn. Seriously, I think this scene was the whole impetus for Sandman coming to Raw and feuding with Carlito in the first place. In the match, Carlito went for the Singapore cane. The referee stopped him, Sandman got the cane, and hit Carlito with it for the disqualification.
Bobby Lashley beat Shelton Benjamin with 24 seconds to spare to win beat the clock. King Booker made an agreement with Benjamin before the match that if Benjamin held off Lashley he would receive the first title shot when Booker wins the WWE title. Benjamin stalled a lot early. Lashley hit an overhead belly to belly. Benjamin countered a back drop into a DDT, which was a really cool spot. Lashley went for the power slam, but Benjamin escaped. However, he did not escape a spear, and Lashley covered for the pin.
William Regal came out for the contract signing. John Cena said it would be a great match and he is looking forward to it. Lashley said that makes two, and signed. King Booker and Mr. Kennedy then interrupted. Lashley and Cena fought them off, but Lashley then speared Cena from behind. The move was booed and seemed to be greeted as a heel turn by some, but I really don’t think it was intended that way.
Final Thoughts:
In the current climate, just about the last guy that I would set up for a push as the next title challenger is Bobby Lashley. It’s beyond stupid. I don’t really care for the push of roided up muscleheads in the first place because I think it leads to a less entertaining product. But there is incredible media scrutiny on steroid use in WWE, and the big story today was the massive quantity of steroids that Chris Benoit was taking leading up to him murdering his family. Given that reality, the decision to continue a massive push of a walking neon steroid billboard is absolutely idiotic.
This was the first edition of Raw since all the news broke last week. If anyone from the media or the real world tuned in to see how WWE handled the situation, they had their negative stereotypes about the industry confirmed. WWE can’t possibly be serious about steroids when this is who they are pushing.
Aside from people outside the business, it sends a clear message to people inside the business as well. No matter how much bad publicity WWE received in the past week, Vince McMahon is as wedded to physiques as ever before, even if it means pushing mediocre wrestlers who can’t talk and have very little charisma. Even if Vince gives the roster a pep talk about how they are serious about cutting down on drugs, how can you possibly take him seriously when the featured performer on the first show since all this broke is the most jacked up guy on the entire roster?
Other than that, I liked the show.
posted by Todd Martin at 12:04 AM
56 Comments:
I completely agree with you on the point of the message sent within the industry (and you gotta believe the idea was for the people within to see the reality) tonight, and how horrid of an idea that is, not to mention the fact of its reality. Earlier today I was thinking of how crucial the first RAW show after all this would be, and what direction the company will take. It's sad that they put the entire focus on the show on being a champion and wanting to fight for the WWE Championship - sad because it proved they only do that when they have nothing else to write about, at least in my mind. I was thinking earlier today Vince will definitely hammer the point of what he still wants out of wrestlers and that he's on the defense against the media somehow, and giving Lashley this megapush is the answer. I was actually expecting a Snitsky appearance tonight, too, but I guess they held back. Great report!
Couple of things...
First of all all hail the end of Vladamir Marellas reign of terror.. This was the worst possible gimmick for this guy.. You take a guy from OVW being billed as russian than make him a native Italian... OK I can live with that.. Than you see his tatoos because nothing screams Italy like Japanese pictographs... But hey its a popular style of tatoo ok.. Than they uh let uh him uh speak.. He uh not uh a so uh good with the uh Italian Accent Eh? YUCK!!
I am against the Lashley title match at Bash surprisingly not for the steroid reason. I am against it because either they are going to keep the feud past Bash to Summerslam (great two dud face vs face matches) or they are hotshotting what has some amount of a draw to it in the even they decide to ever turn one of them heel...
I think the logical booking plan would have been to put in a token Booker match at Bash and continue a build for Lashley or Kennedy at Sumemrslam...
I know it is copletely in almost bad taste... But am I the only one truly interested in finding out where the McMahon who dunnit was going to lead.. I can only hope it was HHH and since HHH is god his devine intervention kept him from being brought up on a murder charge.. either him or perhaps Pacman Jones...
The beat the clock was cool and I like it but with 4 guys it would have made for more compelling tv if they would have simply pitted them against eachother in two matches.. This prevents the well we know Orton is out because he fights first and has to face Jeff Hardy. MEanwhile they bring out the job squad for Booker and Kennedy.. It also detracts from the hey shouldn't by the spirit of the competiton Super Crazy be a legitimate contender...
Finally I usually agree with Todd on a lot of things, grantrd I think you overemphasize the indy style of ROH and PWG, as there are many STYLES of wrestling and most of them when packaged right and put in the right frame of a story can be compelling so the, never push big guys because they are all steroid freaks theory is a little narrowminded to me.. ESPECIALLY with the whole Benoit situation unfolding the way it is it shows its not just the Snitskys of the world on this stuff.. The sad truth is users of steroids and pain killers are probably the majority... However, not all there are many of these users who can bring it in the ring Benoit, Eddie, Kurt, Edge (remember how big he was when he came back after his neck surgery), HHH and more than likely Cena as well.. I think if nothing else the latest Benoit news proves to us the falability of all wrestlers in the business... The right look gets you far, unfortunately I don't know if the industry will ever be able to be built around a bunch of 5 foot nothing 150 lbs highflyers no matter how entertaining, nor will we ever likely be able to go back to the Harly Race vs Dusty Rhodes title scene where you could get over looking like you were just thrown out of a bowling alley bar...
THIS WHOLE SITUATION JUST SUCKS!! I keep trying to put a emotion to how all this has affected me and that seems to be all I can come up with..
I liked one of the comments from the spoilers on the Observer, Super Crazy technically had the best time, he should be #1 contender.
Although it's highly likely, it isn't a fact at all that Lashley uses steroids. Or did he admit it, or did I miss that he was tested positive somewhere? You should write it like that.
Yes, there's no proof that Lashley is on performance-enhancing drugs. Well, aside from that fact that nobody in the entire history of the world has ever had a physique like his without being on performance-enhancing drugs. Hell, even Kurt Angle was making cracks about him gaining 80 pounds (or whatever) of muscle in less than a year, something that, again, has never in the history of earth been done without drugs. But maybe he's the first one?
At the very least, if Vince wants to push him, it should be with the understanding that he'd better be natural and is subject to the most rigorous testing they have, with none of the wellness policy bullshit loopholes (oh, you have a prescription for that? that's fine then).
But I suspect it's Vince being Vince, doing his typical pushback. He's not going to come on top this time though.
oh.. you know the entire history of the world?.. you've sure got a lot of wisdom to share... I don't really believe Lashley hasn't used some medications, but it's not a fact, that's my whole point and as long as it isn't it shouldn't be pretendet as. Oh.. and when even people like Gregory Helms are under suspicion, it won't surprise me if anyone in the entire active roster is on them...
From Matt Hardy to Randy Orton WWE performers over the past week have lost considerable size that is blatantly noticeable to anyone who follows the product.
Bobby Lashley fits into that category.
As strange as that sounds, it's the truth.
I hope you're not contending that WWE should never push anyone who performance enhances ever again, because if that's your argument, Lashley isn't the issue and you should be more pissed off that Mr. Undetectable didn't come out to drop the strap to open the show.
Get off the soapbox. And watch what happens in front of you. I can't believe you didn't make one comment on the difference in size in alot of the talent over the past week.
Probably because you arent as enamored with the talent but more so in the analyzation of a fake sport, that chain wrestling with Booker and Venis sure got over.
WWE make a statement alright, new videos package telling people DO NOT try this at home, as opposed to just DON'T.
Never seen a disclaimer like that on UFC programming.
"it won't surprise me if anyone in the entire active roster is on them... "
And I thought baseball fans were nieve. Yes Ricky Henderson stol 130 bases in 1982, has the most leadoff homeruns of anyone 'in the history of the world', and played actively til 42 and I think he still plays minor league ball today, but steroids only came into baseball in the mid to late 90s....riiiiight.
The Vince angle was going to end up with him faking his own death. It's the higher power angle all over again!
I think Paulie is right in saying that it's hard to avoid pushing guys with physiques given steroid use is likely so rampant in the company. But if you want to send a message to the roster that you're serious about getting the roster off drugs, the guys who get the pushes right now should be the guys who are smaller, just like when Vince was serious about steroids in 92 he fired Ultimate Warrior and British Bulldog and gave Bret Hart the title. I should have made that point in the report.
I don't like to speculate about who's doing what. I genuinely don't. And I'll give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who can remotely justify it. But Lashley competed in college at 177 pounds. He now weighs about 277 of solid muscle and is built like a truck. I don't believe it to be humanly possible to gain that much muscle mass without some form of chemical help, and specifically steroids. To pretend that it's possible he gained that muscle mass naturally to me is just insulting people's intelligence.
I don't know if it's possible to get the roster clean of steroids. But I do know it's possible to stop pushing based on physique, and it's really hard to claim you're doing that when the first week after all this your title challenger is the guy with the biggest body on the entire roster who gets a push in spite of being a good talker, something they supposedly want from any main eventer.
I didn't notice that everyone on the roster had smaller physiques. Randy Orton looked as big as ever. As for Matt Hardy, we haven't seen him on TV since last Tuesday's taping, so I would somewhat dispute the contention that anyone who follows the product would notice he's smaller.
There was no soapbox this week. I didn't say it was offensive that they pushed Lashley so hard. My point of view was just looking at the company's interests. I said it was stupid, and stupid it was.
Nobody's callin' wrestlin or any professional sport completely clean.
If you're pushin' talent based on a combination of qualities without physique factored in, you ain't gonna make much money. Not in 2007. Or 2006. Fuck it the new mellenium. Ask UFC.
"Gone are the 600 pound.." That's SI..right?
I just said they lost size. I didn't say anything about them being small.
They're still larger than life to alot of people.
2.5% according to Vince. Of their what 20 million viewers a week?
Your stance was that WWE shouldn't push a champion because why?
One sentence'll do.
"If you're pushin' talent based on a combination of qualities without physique factored in, you ain't gonna make much money. Not in 2007. Or 2006. Fuck it the new mellenium. Ask UFC."
Umm, heard of Matt Hughes vs. Royce Gracie?
"Your stance was that WWE shouldn't push a champion because why?"
Are you talking about Lashley? If so, again, it's because he's a neon billboard for steroid use and if people from the media or real world decided to watch Raw this week to see how the company would follow what happened with Chris Benoit, it just emphasized their perception that steroid use is a gigantic problem within the company.
Changing the subject just a tad, but is Mr. Kellogg's Crunchy Nuts still technically on the DL with a bad wing?
I imagine this is why he hardly did anything but talk on last night's "memorable" outing.
- Matt in Anchorage
Royce Gracie tested positive for steroids in his last fight.
Haven't seen Matt Hughes since he lost to another guy who lost considerable size when he lost.
Emphasized that Chris Benoit killing his family was an isolated incident? Yeah, that's the wrong play for sure....
Speakin' a billboards I read your piece on CNNsi.com and you finished the article talking about UFC bringing back a guy who failed a drug test to fight the same guy. Who is the current Heavyweight Champion.
I'm just sayin' if you wanna point fingers at people as being billboards, don't neglect the great MMA.
This is just a thought, or maybe a topic for discussion......but does the very act of contributing to WWE's ratings by watching the product present a moral issue? I'm starting to realize that the huge amounts of damage these guys do to their bodies wouldn't occur if there was no longer a demand for them to look and wrestle the way they do.
I'm starting to feel awfully guilty from taking such enjoyment in a group of men doing permanent damage to their bodies......taking steriods, blading, addictions to pain killers....
I think it differs from other sports where people damage themselves in the fact that other sports have drug and physical problems based on people trying to receive an unfair advantage. In the WWE, it seems that people take suplements and cause severe harm to their bodies just to keep up.
Is it time that, as wrestling fans, we fess up to being part of the problem and stop ignoring the obvious damage these men and women are doing to themselves as we cheer them on, or is there some other angle I'm not approaching this from?
Double Down on Matt Hughes.
Josephs argument seems to be against what America likes to see on TV as opposed to people in the wrestling business making money and creating legacies for themself.
You either support the wrestling business or you don't. The only way for those same people 'causing harm to their bodies' to make money is for us fans to buy the ticket or watch the show.
Performance enhancers are just a part of the culture, you either accept it or you don't. But you can't play both sides of the fence. Like being ignorant towards one sports rampant steroid use while complaining about another because a tragedy occurs.
Royce Gracie didn't test positive for steroids in the fight with Hughes, and more importantly, didn't at all look like the stereotypical person on steroids.
Here's Royce for that fight:
http://69.46.29.2:8080/absoluteig/gallery.asp?action=viewimage&categoryid=1158&text=&imageid=17642&box=&shownew=
And Hughes:
http://69.46.29.2:8080/absoluteig/gallery.asp?action=viewimage&categoryid=1158&text=&imageid=17636&box=&shownew=
Your point was that any promotion that doesn't push to some degree based on physique isn't going to make money. That was pretty much verbatim your point. And you cited UFC for this. Well, I would posit you don't know what you're talking about, because Hughes-Gracie did better business than any WWE event last year besides Mania and it featured two 175 pound guys without steroid physiques and one of whom looked like a swimmer for Christ's sake.
You keep making this silly comparisons between MMA and wrestling when you don't even understand MMA. Steroids are unquestionably a problem in both. But the problems are of a fundamentally different nature. In MMA, there is legitimate drug testing by the athletic commissions. The MMA promotions have nothing to do with the testing. It doesn't get at the problem fully because people can get around the tests, but there isn't much to be called for from the MMA promotions. They aren't the ones encouraging steroid use - the pressure there is internal since it's a shoot sport and people want to have every advantage. By contrast wrestling is much more subjective. If promoters push based on freaky physiques, it directly encourages steroid use. If promoters don't push based on that and set up legitimate drug testing without gigantic holes, it will get a lot more at the problem. MMA's performance enhancing drugs problem is much more akin to that of the NFL or MLB, and those belong in one conversation. Pro wrestling's drug problem is of an entirely different nature and is an entirely different conversation as far as the sources and the solutions.
And this point is emphasized by the body count.
Partial list of major wrestlers who have died before the age of 50 of unnatural causes since 1993 (when MMA started):
Louie Spiccoli, Art Barr, Crash Holly, Kerry Von Erich, Eddie Gilbert, The Renegade, Chris Candido, Gary Albright, Bobby Duncum Jr., Big Dick Dudley, Brian Pillman, Pitbull #2, The Wall, Eddie Guerrero, Davey Boy Smith, Johnny Grunge, Chris Benoit, Terry Gordy, Rick Rude, Big Boss Man, Mike Awesome, Curt Hennig, Bam Bam Bigelow, Hercules, Hawk, Dick Murdoch, Rocco Rock, Sherri Martel
Major MMA figures who died during that period:
Ummm....
What kind of argument is that? LOL.
No offense.
I said UFC changed their marketability by selling physiques while stressing physical fitness and training. I don't understand MMA? Please. You're comparing a sport where the participants train at home or locations of their choosing for months at a time against a profession where you have to go where the money is at any time, and if you're lucky enough to be picked up by WWE you work where they want, when they tell you, and you accept that honor.
You cited Gracie and Hughes as an example of UFC not marketing fighters taking juice. I said Royce tested positive in his last fight.
You're right UFC doesn't encourage steroid use just the hundreds of supplements that sponsor the company. When was the last time you saw WWE advertising even protein supplementation?
If you do better business than alot except one, you didn't do the best business now did you?
So you're telling me MMA fighters are tested routinely whether have a scheduled fight or not, as long as they are an active participant contracted by any organizaton?
If not and you can pass piss and blood tests before and after the fight, you're barkin' up the wrong tree.
If you're trying to say wrestling is not a shoot because guys aren't trying to elevate themselves or do better or look better than the next guy, you're wrong.
When did taking steroids become not a personal choice?
I really don't think you realize the amount of money to be made by these guys can't be made without the use of percription medication or performance enhancing drugs. In any industry, or else Michael Moore would have nothing to make movies about. I'm not gonna play off the loss and suffering of others who handled stress in a way that became harmful to them physically. And I don't know how you can. Supporting MMA because there is rampant steroid use with less deaths is one hell of a stance to make. Especially at this point. Imagine if they had steroids in 1870.
When pro wrestling started.
Then imagine if they had human growth hormone.
Wow. Al Tyson, you need better sources for MMA information. I won't even begin to break down your funny comments on MMA, nor its comparison with wrestling (I'm sure Todd has pulled his hair out by now), but if you weren't well informed in MMA as it is, you also missed out some WWE facts. Not only did Triple H sign a deal back in 2005 to promote BSN (Bio-Engineered Supplements and Nutrition), but WWE as a whole (at the time WWF) used to have a major nutrition/work-out supplement sponsor in 2000 - 2001, with Triple H even doing a few commercials that aired on WWF TV at the time. Then there was the YJ Sting area with that energy drink, but that's nothing compared to the stuff they've done before with supplement advertising. Not to forget Triple H's entire book on bodybuilding and dieting.
As far as looks go, Todd's point is crucial. In NFL, MLB, and UFC (or other MMA organization for that matter), nobody cares what you look like if you are good. These are athletic competitions - sports. Pro wreslting is entertainment, as Vince has taught us, and depending on the promoter - looks can be the most important aspect of a character.
As for that list, how many names are there of pro wrestlers since 93 that have taken steroids and are still alive?
And of that short list you made, how many of those had the combination of steroid use as well as cocaine or other street drug use.
If we're countin' MMA is kickin' ass in positive steroid tests when compared to MLB and the NFL.
"Wow. Al Tyson, you need better sources for MMA information. "
Not every fighter is tested routinely or randomly, in this country or abroad. Some companies have random testing that they use at an infrquent rate. There is rampant steroid use in the sport with the positive tests of many top UFC competitors both current and former as proof.
It's a jump from bodybuilding magazines to Smackdown, RAW and ECW programming.
Some of the most over characters in the history of WWE didn't have "the look" you're talking about. The typical "steroidal physique" Todd was talking about.
Ya kno, the way Baroni looked against Shamrock.
The juice is sucked out long before the pre fight weigh ins. Please believe that. For the smart ones.
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Todd....you used these following wrestlers in your argument Crash Holly, Renegade, Kerry Von Erich, Bobby Duncum, The Wall, Mike Awesome, Bam Bam Bigalow and of course Chris Benoit...These guys killed themselves. Committing suicide takes a deeper problem rooted IMO with mental problems. I'm not disputing that all of these guys took and probably abused roids. But to just blame roids is a mistake.
UFC has never sold physiques as part of their allure. At first it was bloody spectacle, then character driven, now it’s relatively pure sport. As Eddie points out, this is a shoot sport. You can look like James Thompson, but if you get knocked out in 10 seconds by Aleksander Emelianenko you’re not going to last long as a star. This notion that UFC is physique driven is a total falsehood that just reflects applying a pro wrestling mentality to another form of entertainment you don’t have a very good grasp of.
As far as UFC being sponsored by energy drinks, I don’t think Xyience or Rockstar exactly functions as a gateway to anabolic steroids.
You missed the distinction of shoot and work. In a shoot competition, people are going to use the substances that they feel will help them perform better. There may be a few MMA fighters that take steroids because they care about their look (I know Tim Sylvia used this as an excuse), but the vast majority are doing it because it gives them a competitive advantage. In a work it’s completely different. Having a gigantic physique doesn’t enhance your performance. If anything, it hurts your endurance and flexibility and makes you more likely to get injured. It’s a purely aesthetic motivation that leads to steroid abuse, and that makes it a lot easier to nip in the bud if you instill in wrestlers that such a look is not a positive and if anything a negative.
You bring up that in the list I quickly pulled up and filtered of wrestler deaths that many of them combined steroid use with other street drugs (and I think the bigger issue – painkillers). And absolutely that’s the case. That’s a big part of why wrestling needs to get at the issue more than other sports do. These other sports may have steroid use, but they don’t mix that in with the painkillers and the road schedule and other drugs like wrestling. Wrestlers are particularly vulnerable already, which is why there should be more of a focus on getting rid of some of these negative factors (and I think I’d go after the schedule even before the steroids).
I don’t know where this fits into the discussion, but a large part of the reason MMA has more drug failures than NFL and MLB is because it’s conducted by third party athletic commissions and the tests of the other sports are carried out by the sports themselves.
I know of no MMA company that conducts random testing as you suggest. It’s all tied with the fights. And I don’t think you’re right in suggesting that fighters beat the drug tests by cycling. They test for a lot of things that stay in your blood stream well after you take them. Rather, the people that are beating the drug tests know which designer drugs go undetected, and know which drugs to mix together to act as masking agents. The time period issue you’re harping on is a side issue.
Crash Holly, Bobby Duncum Jr., Bam Bam Bigelow and The Wall did not commit suicide. As far as the ones who did (Renegade, Kerry, Awesome, Benoit), I included them because they fit in the general “unhealthy lifestyle” death where you add up days on the road, painkillers, steroids and other factors. I wouldn’t primarily attribute steroids to anyone who commits suicide, but I think it’s worth bringing up in demonstrating how these factors can work together to produce tragedy, and how often that happens in wrestling. I agree that to just blame roids is a mistake.
And just to clarify the whole thing, I’m not even that against steroids. I mean, they are overall bad for sure, but it’s not a huge issue for me. I harp on it right now with WWE for 2 reasons: 1) Right or wrong, steroids are a huge issue with the media right now, and WWE should be very careful not to let this story get out of control for them 2) I think the product would be better if they de-emphasized steroids anyway.
LOL Baroni tested positive for steroids in his fight with Shamrock.
"You missed the distinction of shoot and work. In a shoot competition, people are going to use the substances that they feel will help them perform better."
Apparently you don't accept the fact that pro wrestlers are driven to look just as good and wrestle just as well on a night to night basis. If you're trying to tell me UFC fighters and MMA fighters as a whole don't take juice to look good for the cameras you're just out and out lying to me and the people reading this. Or you don't realize or accept that they are.
Street Drug Abuse is Slow Suicide.
And that goes for everyone.
Even the legalized ones, Cigs and Brews included. Liver disease and lung cancer.
Xyience does not just sell energy drinks and you're wrong to imply they do.
A large part of the MMA roid race is predicated on it being roid driven sport where guys wanna be as big and as tough as they can possibly be. Is it everyone who thinks that way? No. Is it the vast majority? Hell Yes. The number of MLB and NFL drug tests fuckin dwarfs MMA's over a 12 month span. You can't say the athletic commissions are the reason when you cant put an MMA show on anywhere without at least one person testing positive for performance enhancers.
You implied that MLB and NFL cover up their drug test results. Why?
Dave, your boy, reported yesterday UFC has contracts with guys that permit random testing.
So in the same way you're were mad about the media stamping roid rage on the Benoit murders, you're gonna complain about WWE pushing guys who use? And then at the same time write an article for Sports Illlustrated.com about MMA fighters who routinely test positive and advocate the return of someone who tested positive the last time he fought in UFC? Beyond hypocritical.
"Ya kno, the way Baroni looked against Shamrock."
"LOL Baroni tested positive for steroids in his fight with Shamrock."
Boom.
"1) Right or wrong, steroids are a huge issue with the media right now, and WWE should be very careful not to let this story get out of control for them"
Before attacking wrestling for it's steroid abuse, I'd start with the 'sport' you cover for Sports Illustrated. Or Cnn. Or SI.com or CNNSi.com. Not Martin's Blogspot and Smarks Anonymous.
"2) I think the product would be better if they de-emphasized steroids anyway."
And you'd be wrong.
Your disabled list would be triple your active roster. Your boys ROH and PWG what they run? 1 show every 2-3 months? Maybe 3? WWE runs what 50+ in that span? Each talent individually 20 or more? You're out of your mind to think that pro wrestlers can work on a day to day basis without the strength and recovery time that steroids can provide for you when used properly.
Anyone see Konnan get shot down on Nancy Grace besides me? At least he was somewhat honest, but still, like all wrestlers, got shot down by the big bad media.
The lady really asked him "then what's the cause" (if not roid rage, for the Benoit murders)..
Like his gimmick was "The Psychic".
”Apparently you don't accept the fact that pro wrestlers are driven to look just as good and wrestle just as well on a night to night basis. If you're trying to tell me UFC fighters and MMA fighters as a whole don't take juice to look good for the cameras you're just out and out lying to me and the people reading this. Or you don't realize or accept that they are.”
Look at the ROH roster. You’ve got guys that look good and are in tremendous shape, but aren’t nearly as big as the WWE roster. Some of them are surely on steroids, but a much lower percentage than WWE. Why? Because the promotion doesn’t encourage it; the promotion encourages performance in the ring. And hell, look at guys on the WWE roster before they came to WWE. Rey Rey was much, much smaller in AAA, ECW and WCW. Eddie was much smaller in AAA, ECW and the early days of WCW. Bobby Lashley was 100 pounds lighter in college when he was a prominent wrestler. All these guys had the same motivations to look good previously, but it was only when they went to a company that pushed based on physique that they became much larger. And unquestionably that company mentality affects the way they look.
”Xyience does not just sell energy drinks and you're wrong to imply they do.”
Umm, go to xyience.com and tell me what all those drink cans that say “energy” on them are. Have you watched one UFC event in the past three years? Because the fighters pretend to drink from a xyience can after every fight as part of a sponsorship agreement.
”A large part of the MMA roid race is predicated on it being roid driven sport where guys wanna be as big and as tough as they can possibly be.”
Oh yeah. Like Sakuraba, Chuck Liddell and his gut, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Fedor, Igor, BJ Penn, Matt Lindland, Matt Hughes, etc. etc. etc. Hell, have you ever watched an MMA event?
“The number of MLB and NFL drug tests fuckin dwarfs MMA's over a 12 month span. You can't say the athletic commissions are the reason when you cant put an MMA show on anywhere without at least one person testing positive for performance enhancers. You implied that MLB and NFL cover up their drug test results. Why?”
These two comments are tied to the same misconception. Number of tests doesn’t matter. And covering up of drug results isn’t the issue. The issue is that you can tailor your test to go after drugs to varying degrees. WWE has all sorts of loopholes. A test run by an athletic commission is going to cut out those loopholes in the way you measure results. And another issue is the amount of money you have to get designer stuff that isn’t going to get caught.
“So in the same way you're were mad about the media stamping roid rage on the Benoit murders, you're gonna complain about WWE pushing guys who use?”
I’ve made the distinction about five times now. I’m not doing it again. I’ll just repeat what I wrote the last time: “I’m not even that against steroids. I mean, they are overall bad for sure, but it’s not a huge issue for me. I harp on it right now with WWE for 2 reasons: 1) Right or wrong, steroids are a huge issue with the media right now, and WWE should be very careful not to let this story get out of control for them 2) I think the product would be better if they de-emphasized steroids anyway.”
“And then at the same time write an article for Sports Illlustrated.com about MMA fighters who routinely test positive and advocate the return of someone who tested positive the last time he fought in UFC?”
That was over five years ago. Lifetime BAN~?
“Before attacking wrestling for it's steroid abuse, I'd start with the 'sport' you cover for Sports Illustrated. Or Cnn. Or SI.com or CNNSi.com. Not Martin's Blogspot and Smarks Anonymous.”
Maybe I will write about steroid use in MMA some time. I think it’s a legitimate subject for discussion. But it will be a little bit more of a topic for discussion if tons of people start dropping dead. And hell, it’s not like I’ve written a ton about steroids in wrestling either. All I said is they shouldn’t push Lashley to the moon when the media’s on their asses for steroids.
If steroids reduced: “And you'd be wrong. Your disabled list would be triple your active roster.”
WAH?? You do realize steroids increase injuries, don’t you? Look at Batista’s career versus Bret Hart’s.
“You're out of your mind to think that pro wrestlers can work on a day to day basis without the strength and recovery time that steroids can provide for you when used properly.”
Ever heard of Lou Thesz? Or the notion that wrestling was around prior to Superstar Billy Graham, and there was quite the schedule back then?
I'm not gonna go through it all as I expect people to pick out what's blantantly a lie and a strive for protection for MMA and what's honest banter.
If you caught ECW last night, you saw how they plan to erase Benoit (from history, if the kid who wrote the report on the observer hadn't mentioned it, I would have never known there were "we want benoit" chants during the match.
”Xyience does not just sell energy drinks and you're wrong to imply they do.”
The entire ROH roster would do anything to work WWE, and you're talking about a group that has physically much smaller wrestlers to begin with. Anyone who's made it to TNA has juiced their face off too so I don't wanna hear that bullshit. It's a bullshit argument and you know it. When the most money is rollin' in and the most cameras are on you, pro wrestlers want to look their absolute best, no matter what you or Vince McMahon tells them.
You can't honestly believe that none of those guys have taken steroids at any point during their career. Chuck Liddell has a muscle gut, not a beer belly, be clear.
WWE should never push Lashley because Benoit was potentially crazy? I guess that's the same line of thinking that factors into assuming a guy just stops fuckin' wit steroids during a 5 year period he isn't working for the major company in America. Isn't Barnett an American fighter? Argue what you want about the extent of his ban, fact is he tested positive in his last fight with Couture and you advocated they bring him in for a rematch. That same night you complained about the WWE pushing a potential steroid user with no positive tests on record (aside from a reported high enzyme count in his liver which is normally attributed to steroid abuse.).
Batista is 6-2 210 pounds naturally?
And Bret Hart admitted to taking steroids during his pro wrestling career just this past week. Not his fault and was probably his undoing that he just wasn't built large enough physically. Bret Hart is another guy that gets too much acclaim from millions of people who don't know him personally, same as any other wrestler.
"But it will be a little bit more of a topic for discussion if tons of people start dropping dead."
And I'm suppose to look forward to that? Gee I can't wait....
Yea I know who Lou Thez is, I don't remember him or the times cause I'm too young and I haven't studied it enough. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he never ran 30-40 shows in a two month span, possibly spread over 4 different continents, nor did he wrestle guys two to three times his size with the athleticism, endurance and flexibility of pro wrestlers today.
If you think Lou Thez, his style, and that schedule, gets over and makes more money for the pro wrestlers on a worldwide level than what WWE does right now, I'm wasting my time debating the issue.
The number of tests issued versus the number of positive results, (regardless of what you're arguing, because if someone in the NFL tests positive for coke or Stanzonol, it's a positive result) the amount of MMA fighters that have failed drug tests since the sport became "mainstream" is astounding.
It's completely hypocritical to bash wrestling when you have never spoken out against MMA. When daily, there are fighters who test positive. AS evidence, Phil Baroni tests positive for two different forms of steroids and he was the marquee name on the main event of a show your boy Meltzer called the show of 2007.
Stephan Bonner?
Nah MMA, has no steroid problems. But the guys who win don't even win the reality show get popped. Right.
Stephan Bonner?
Nah MMA, has no steroid problems. But the guys who don't even win the reality show get popped (tested positive for roids). Right.
There are lifetime bans for running, throwing and swimming but for fighting?
Fuck that..let's give him as many chances as possible til they either kill himself or somebody else.
Cause according to your boy, it's easily predictable and he's just waiting on the death toll, same way you are.
The reactionary crew.
The Wrestling Researcher and his long time tag team partner Mixed Marshall Martin, whose finishing manuever seems to be The Soapbox.
It's where ya hold one guy up on a pedastol and then you jump off your high horse and hit his partner with the, KILL WRESTLING MAYBE MMA PROSPERS clothesline of doom.
One last thing on Thesz, there was wrestling before and during the steroid craze, same way there was baseball and football. But like both baseball and football, pro wrestling has changed because of it and for the better. The pay checks have increased and the guys who take care of themselves and don't do mass amounts of perscription and illegal street drugs seem to be functionally really well.
My point is you're completely hypocritical to finger point wrestling when MMA has a blatant steroid problem. Your main point is it's a problem when people start dying. And that's just not the case, if you're talking about what you've deemed as "pure sport".
Unless by pure you meant completely corrupted, addiction ridden and steroid driven.
If that's what you meant by pure, I retract everything I've written.
I was enjoying a nice nap and I wake up to this propaganda..
..WWE makes wrestlers do things they don't wanna do and drive them to take steroids and pain medication and offer them little to no help.
..MMA fighters take steroids, just none of the big names.
..Batista powerbombing dozens if not hundreds of different wrestlers a year is comparable to Bret Hart wrapping up somebody's legs after a 20 minute match.
..guys in ROH and PWG don't have to or want to take steroids because their boss tells them not to.
..Xyience sells just energy drinks.
..more people care about the sport of pro wrestling than sports entertainment.
“I'm not gonna go through it all as I expect people to pick out what's blantantly a lie and a strive for protection for MMA and what's honest banter.”
Carny for: I can’t really respond when you point out blatant facts that expose false arguments.
“The entire ROH roster would do anything to work WWE, and you're talking about a group that has physically much smaller wrestlers to begin with. Anyone who's made it to TNA has juiced their face off too so I don't wanna hear that bullshit. It's a bullshit argument and you know it.”
When the industry leader is obsessed with physiques, of course wrestlers who want to make it there are going to use steroids. Basic logic. If WWE didn’t emphasize the physiques, you would see less of an emphasis across the board. There’s a reason Japanese wrestling has never had the absurd physiques like American wrestling – because New Japan and All Japan didn’t emphasize physiques over talent.
“When the most money is rollin' in and the most cameras are on you, pro wrestlers want to look their absolute best, no matter what you or Vince McMahon tells them.”
Of course they do. Here’s a newsflash: You can have a great physique without steroids. I think Bryan Danielson is probably a hell of a lot healthier than Bobby Lashley and he looks perfectly fine without being ripped to the gills at 270.
“You can't honestly believe that none of those guys have taken steroids at any point during their career. Chuck Liddell has a muscle gut, not a beer belly, be clear.”
A MUSCLE GUT?!?! What, has he been growing a circular roll of muscle around his waist by doing lots of sit ups?!? Have you ever seen Kazushi Sakuraba?
”WWE should never push Lashley because Benoit was potentially crazy?”
Of course that’s not my argument. I’ve made the argument over and over and over again and I’m getting sick and tired of repeating it for you. Here’s it nice and slow. THE MEDIA IS AFTER WWE ON STEROIDS. THIS IS A HUGE STORY AND IT COULD POTENTIALLY LEAD TO CALLS FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO STEP IN AND REGULATE THE INDUSTRY. GIVEN THE MEDIA IS SO GUNG HO ABOUT STEROIDS AND THINKS IT’S A HUGE STORY, IT IS A BAD IDEA FOR BUSINESS TO PUSH IN THE MAIN EVENT THE SINGLE GUY ON THE ENTIRE ROSTER THAT MOST LOOKS ON STEROIDS BECAUSE THE MEDIA MIGHT BE WATCHING AND IT MAKES THEM EVEN MORE CONVINCED THAT THE INDUSTRY NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP. That’s it. It’s not that hard to grasp.
“Isn't Barnett an American fighter? Argue what you want about the extent of his ban, fact is he tested positive in his last fight with Couture and you advocated they bring him in for a rematch.”
No I didn’t. The article was introducing fans to people who may be coming in. Barnett may be coming in. I explained what he brings to the table, what the UFC thinks about him, and where he might end up. Nowhere did I say anything about how anyone should bring in Josh Barnett. And it’s a bad analogy anyway. The reason why someone would bring in Josh Barnett is because he’s a great fighter and can talk. He doesn’t even have an impressive physique – he’s kind of pudgy. Meanwhile with Lashley you’ve got a guy who isn’t a great wrestler, can’t talk, has limited charisma and basically is just a physique. What the hell one has to do with the other is beyond me.
“Batista is 6-2 210 pounds naturally? And Bret Hart admitted to taking steroids during his pro wrestling career just this past week. Not his fault and was probably his undoing that he just wasn't built large enough physically. Bret Hart is another guy that gets too much acclaim from millions of people who don't know him personally, same as any other wrestler.”
Well you completely missed that point too. Bret Hart took steroids early in his career when he was in the WWF (no shocker there). You could see the difference from Calgary Stampede to Hart Foundation in the late 80s. But you then can see the difference between the Bret Hart of the late 80s and the Bret Hart of the early 90s and beyond. He got off the juice and was much smaller. And during that period from the early 90s through the end of the 90s, Bret Hart wrestled a full schedule with only one sustained break in 1996, and had almost no major injuries. Meanwhile, Batista is a prototypical steroid user, and he gets injured seemingly every 3-4 months. Which goes to the point that large amounts of steroids make you more likely to suffer injuries.
“"But it will be a little bit more of a topic for discussion if tons of people start dropping dead." And I'm suppose to look forward to that? Gee I can't wait....”
Here’s a little hint: I don’t think it’s going to happen. But if it does by all means then we should look at how to change that.
“Yea I know who Lou Thez is”
Who?
“I don't remember him or the times cause I'm too young and I haven't studied it enough. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he never ran 30-40 shows in a two month span, possibly spread over 4 different continents, nor did he wrestle guys two to three times his size with the athleticism, endurance and flexibility of pro wrestlers today.”
Well, you would be wrong, again. Thesz ran a tougher schedule as NWA champion than any wrestler does today. As champion of the NWA he was required to take bookings all over the country constantly, and ran many more shows than WWE performers do today (and 30-40 shows is way high on what WWE guys today do). He also toured other countries and wrestled a grueling schedule. And this is true of a lot of big stars in wrestling dating back decades. Not to mention Japan. You seem to only know and understand WWE. Not UFC. Not Pride. Not the NWA. Not CMLL. Not New Japan. Not All Japan. Not Mid South. Not anything else. And it gives you an unbelievably limited base of knowledge as to what wrestling is and what wrestling can be. Go buy some tapes or read some books and you’ll discover a shocking fact: Vince McMahon has put more of an emphasis on physiques than any other successful promoter in wrestling history, and there have been plenty of very successful promotions that ran without everyone on the roster being juiced up to an outrageous extent. You cross apply the WWE business philosophy to all these other companies and you end up completely and utterly missing the point as to what makes them successful and what they are.
“The number of tests issued versus the number of positive results, (regardless of what you're arguing, because if someone in the NFL tests positive for coke or Stanzonol, it's a positive result) the amount of MMA fighters that have failed drug tests since the sport became "mainstream" is astounding.”
Agreed.
“It's completely hypocritical to bash wrestling when you have never spoken out against MMA.”
No, actually it isn’t, by definition. Hypocritical is to say one thing and do another. I think what you mean is I have a double standard. And I don’t. I’ve followed pro wrestling for much longer than I’ve followed MMA, and spent a lot more time watching it over the years. As I’ve said many times in this thread and before, I don’t care that much about steroids as an absolute proposition. I don’t care about them in baseball either. What I care about is that pro wrestling, to a grossly disproportionate extent over these other sports, sees young men and women die way too early. And I don’t want to see that. That rash of deaths makes it a qualitatively different concern than baseball, football, MMA or any other industry. I don’t want to see people die before their time. And there are a lot of ways to get at that. Reduce the schedule. Test for painkillers. And also stop pushing based on physique. It’s one of a number of solutions, but it’s absolutely an issue worth tackling.
“Stephan Bonner? Nah MMA, has no steroid problems. But the guys who win don't even win the reality show get popped. Right.”
Another straw argument you’ve set up. I never said that there wasn’t steroid use in MMA – just that it’s of a different nature and a different concern than wrestling. And the guy’s name is Bonnar.
“There are lifetime bans for running, throwing and swimming but for fighting? Fuck that..let's give him as many chances as possible til they either kill himself or somebody else.”
Umm, there aren’t lifetime bans for football or baseball either. And given there have been very limited suicides or murders in any of those sports and there is a long and established record with pro wrestling, it’s a completely disingenuous argument.
”The Wrestling Researcher and his long time tag team partner Mixed Marshall Martin, whose finishing manuever seems to be The Soapbox. It's where ya hold one guy up on a pedastol and then you jump off your high horse and hit his partner with the, KILL WRESTLING MAYBE MMA PROSPERS clothesline of doom.”
You’ve figured it out. Dave and I have a secret agenda to destroy pro wrestling so MMA can succeed. Be sure to keep it hush hush. Wouldn’t want anyone to know I’m secretly on Dana White’s payroll.
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Automatic for first time offenses. If you want to play disingenuous rhetorical games on side issues when you know what I meant, you can do that elsewhere.
Didn't take you long to censor me.
What I pointed out was that MLB does have a lifetime ban in its policy for a positive third test and you said there was none.
The people demand beauty and good physiques, the same way you say Vince stressed it, he pushed it because its what the people called for and what was going to make him and the wrestlers the most amount of money.
Batista's injuries have alot more to do with him being poorly trained and not as protective of himself and others as a Bret Hart. And you have no proof when or if Bret Hart came off anything from his time in WWF to WCW.
Sorry for the typo Lou, I know you care. Lou Thesz' version of pro wrestling is not what sells in 2007, aspects of it, hell yeah, but you can't run an entire show or promotion like that because it's boring and nobody cares about the sport accept less than half the people who get into the business.
You could tell steroids were going to be a problem in MMA when that Mark Kerr movie came out.
And for a person who seems educated like yourself, to sit there and blatantly disregard the amount of positive steroid tess for an industry that's only been around since 1993 that is by far the most brutal competitive sport other than boxing is not educated, its hypocritical.
You're right MMA fighters won't be dying off from physical diseases and depression 20 years from now.
Wait no, you're not. But I hope I'm wrong.
Just because you fuck up and i BLOW YOUR SHIT OUTTA THE WATER DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD DELETE MY COMMENTS.
Thanks.
Take your losses like a man brah.
I find that when I'm most tooling someone in an argument, they do one of two things: 1) focus in on a side issue and really harp on it to the point of distraction 2) talk about how they're "winning the argument." And you've now whipped out both, which means I'm going to stop wasting my time.
Yeah and I guess Vince was making everyone do all that juice and them drugs in WCW.
You ain't blamin' UFC for the juice and drugs in MMA, don't blame WWE for it's place in wrestling.
Get on Bonds for taking the best shit, and ignore McGwire's use.
I love that line of thinking.
I didn't say I won the argument but your counterpoint to one of mine I exposed you as wrong and you deleted my post.
To quote the jesus..."Laughable Man."
And Yuji Simada finally jumps in to save Al from any futher punishment.
This was like the verbal equivilent of Don Frye vs James Thompson - A needlessly drawn out drubbing.
LOL. Let's recap what we've learned so far:
1) Clearly, according to Al Tyson (how worked is that name?), Todd works for the MMA industry as a whole, and is clearly trying to "defend" its rampant steroid abuse, drug usage, and desire of fighters to look like Lashley. I'm sure he's also responsible for Barry Bonds' weight gain a couple years back, as well as those girls with Quinton Jackson that frequent Las Vegas.
2) WWE is where it's at. Holla if ya hear me.
3) Somehow UFC doing energy drinks is horrible, but WWE doing YJ Stinger, Triple H doing a BSN supplement commerical (you can see it here) is clearly okay.
4) The art of Carny hasn't died. God bless Jim Cornette.
5) There are no such things as Lou Thesz, Lance Storm, the ROH lockerroom, or an AJ Styles who refuses to bulk up to go to WWE.
6) We're all pitching in to get Al Tyson a subscription to the Observer, and a direct web page of all of Todd's MMA articles.
Well, Todd, you tried. You can't win'em all, I guess. Logic and reasoning doesn't work for everyone apparently.
You should really file a complaint, Lashley was never tested positive, but hey... Todd Martin just knows it... it must be true then...
Oh and just because John Cena has more body fat than Lashley doesn't mean he takes less roids, for the record... or did your psychic powers not click when you killed a frog to test him?
Do you honestly need testing to realize the something is not right when a guy who competed at 177 lbs in college explodes into 280 lbs of solid muscle?
Or the fact that he wa acutally far less muscular in Ohio Valley?
Todd, you have the patience of a saint to engage Al Tyson for this long. If this were my blog I think I would have banned him long ago.
The guy clearly has no idea what he's talking about, and, worse, clearly is not open to learning the actual facts of the matter, so what can you do? On top of that he's rude, he's insulting, he can't quote properly, and he can't compose a paragraph to save his life.
You probably can't do this with the blogger software, but the ideal situation (assuming you wanted to be nice) would be to limit him to one post per topic. When somebody's incapable of reconsidering their opinions when new facts are brought to their attention, it's kind of pointless to let them keep "debating".
I hate to mention this, but Josh Barnett is actually a good example of someone apparently taking steroids for marketability in MMA. He is cursed with a flabby-looking physique, even when he is in fantastic shape, and he apparently took steroids to achieve a tighter look. Jeremy Horn was one of his training partners at the time, and he (somewhat unfairly, I thought) knocked the fans that criticized Barnett for taking steroids when he felt many were the same fans that drove Barnett to do it by complaining about his flabby physique.
Tim Sylvia later used the same excuse, as Todd pointed out.
Still, I think the original point stands. First, the appearance excuse is rare in MMA, with the vast majority of steroid use being for performance reasons. Second, who knows if these guys are even telling the truth or simply using the appearance excuse as a way to claim they weren't actually trying to cheat at fighting. Third, the vast majority of MMA fighters have physiques that look like they could be achieved naturally.
One thing I think has been missed is that, yes, you can rattle off a list of names of guys in MMA that have failed drug tests, but in some ways that is to the sport's credit. Where is the list of names of WWE performers that failed their drug tests, what they failed for, and what the disciplinary action was? The only place that list exists is internally in the WWE, so the only way the public knows anyone tested positive is if the information leaks.
Speaking of Benoit being edited off WWE TV, I've noticed some interesting things related to that:
Randy Orton has gone from being "The Legend Killer" to "The Legend...well, you know the rest."
The old ECW theme song has replaced "Bodies" (with its "let the bodies hit the floor" chorus) as the music for the ECW opening.
Not only did they edit the crowd chants in the Punk/Nitro match, but they stripped out a lot of the commentary at the beginning of the match and Joey Styles redid quite a bit of it during the match to remove any reference to Nitro fighting because Benoit couldn't make it. (It was actually kind of amusing at one point, as Styles was explaining how neither guy could prepare for this match and started speaking very slowly with long pauses in between words. I got the impression he had a certain amount of time to fill and was kind of struggling to get the timing right.)
That’s it. It’s not that hard to grasp.
Apparantly, for some people, it is that hard to grasp...
Didn't take you long to censor me.
Only 23 posts. Not long at all.
I've never seen so much arguing for the sake of arguing from on person before in my entire life.
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